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Are there situations where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
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Are there situations where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
Parashat Vayikra + ZachorPurim and Shushan PurimHow does a son call up his father for an Aliyah?Who is Herbert?Formal Hebrew honorific for one's motherHalachic sources for not using the first names of your parents?“There they buried Yitzchak” — not “my father”?Can an adopted child call birth parents by first name?What problems are faced by children born out of wedlock?If your parent changes their name, does your name change too?What to do if parent doesn't have Jewish name, or if the child never knew it?Is it permitted for a parent to turn down a potential match for their child without the child knowing?Responsa regarding gender selection for non-medical purposesCharlie Gard's parents from a Halachic PerspectiveAny issue in using a different name than given at brit mila?How much is one obligated to hold a will?
(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)
Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?
Furthermore, is this something a parent can mevater, i.e. "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?
halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring
|
show 4 more comments
(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)
Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?
Furthermore, is this something a parent can mevater, i.e. "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?
halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
1
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)
Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?
Furthermore, is this something a parent can mevater, i.e. "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?
halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring
(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)
Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?
Furthermore, is this something a parent can mevater, i.e. "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?
halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring
halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring
edited 47 mins ago
Ploni
4,5251459
4,5251459
asked 6 hours ago
alichtalicht
1,8131427
1,8131427
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
1
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
1
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
1
1
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.
According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.
R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)
According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).
Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
add a comment |
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:
אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל
Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.
So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b
אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.
According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.
R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)
According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).
Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
add a comment |
There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.
According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.
R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)
According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).
Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
add a comment |
There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.
According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.
R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)
According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).
Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.
There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.
According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.
R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)
According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).
Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.
answered 5 hours ago
Y e zY e z
44.4k368197
44.4k368197
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
add a comment |
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?
– DonielF
2 hours ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
@DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.
– Y e z
55 mins ago
add a comment |
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:
אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל
Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.
So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b
אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:
אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל
Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.
So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b
אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:
אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל
Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.
So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b
אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:
אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל
Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.
So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b
אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 3 hours ago
alicht
1,8131427
1,8131427
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 5 hours ago
Lo aniLo ani
44711
44711
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
When you say "to call" do you mean "to refer to"? I.e. is your question specifically about a child speaking directly to their parent, or even when referring to their parent while speaking to someone else?
– Y e z
5 hours ago
@Y e z both- if I change the girsa to "refer to" does that make it clearer?
– alicht
5 hours ago
@Y e z primarily when speaking directly to their parent, but also when referring to them
– alicht
5 hours ago
I personally think so. Doesn't hurt.
– Y e z
5 hours ago
1
judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706
– Dr. Shmuel
5 hours ago