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Can you use Vicious Mockery to win an argument or gain favours?
Can a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Can an Eldritch Knight use the bonus-action attack granted by War Magic before casting the spell as an action?Does Psychic Crush cause stunning on a successful save also?Is Ego Whip a charm-based attack?Vicious Mockery on non-humanoid targets?Is this modification of the Vicious Mockery cantrip overpowered?Potent Cantrip with Toll the Dead vs EvasionCan a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Does this cantrip have a fair risk/reward balance?Does the Fear spell work with an Oath of Conquest paladin's Aura of Conquest?Is there any way to damage Intellect Devourer(s) when already within a creature's skull?
$begingroup$
Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.
As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).
Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.
Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.
If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?
Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?
Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...
dnd-5e spells social-combat
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.
As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).
Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.
Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.
If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?
Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?
Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...
dnd-5e spells social-combat
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
15 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.
As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).
Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.
Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.
If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?
Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?
Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...
dnd-5e spells social-combat
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
$endgroup$
Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.
As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).
Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.
Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.
If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?
Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?
Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...
dnd-5e spells social-combat
dnd-5e spells social-combat
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
edited 10 mins ago
V2Blast
25.1k483155
25.1k483155
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
asked 1 hour ago
Victor BVictor B
1,101222
1,101222
$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
15 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
15 mins ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Not in the way you want it to.
Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.
Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.
However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1
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oldest
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active
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votes
$begingroup$
Not in the way you want it to.
Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.
Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.
However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not in the way you want it to.
Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.
Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.
However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not in the way you want it to.
Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.
Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.
However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
$endgroup$
Not in the way you want it to.
Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.
Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.
However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
edited 48 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
answered 1 hour ago
Ben BardenBen Barden
11.2k12765
11.2k12765
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
48 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
$begingroup$
@VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
$endgroup$
– Zibbobz
32 mins ago
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$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
44 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
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– Ben Barden
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
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– Victor B
15 mins ago