Coin Game with infinite paradox Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Flip a Fair CoinAnother probabilistic coin puzzleLeft coin, Right coin, Last coin- A fair versionCoin Flipping Game with the DevilCoin division puzzleEccentric Millionaire Probability ParadoxWhat is the value of this other coin flipping game?The asymmetric coin gameFind Coin's unfairness with only 4 tossesThe Monster and the Chessboard

Etymology of 見舞い

Import keychain to clean macOS install?

Can Deduction Guide have an explicit(bool) specifier?

Lights are flickering on and off after accidentally bumping into light switch

Does using the inspiration rules for character defects tend to encourage players to display MGS?

Why these surprising proportionalities of integrals involving odd zeta values?

Can I take recommendation from someone I met at a conference?

/bin/ls sorts differently than just ls

What helicopter has the most rotor blades?

What combination of kingdom cards makes for the fewest number of turns to end the game?

Lemmatization Vs Stemming

Is Vivien of the Wilds + Wilderness Reclimation a competitive combo?

Does Prince Arnaud cause someone holding the Princess to lose?

Assertions In A Mock Callout Test

Is Bran literally the world's memory?

false 'Security alert' from Google - every login generates mails from 'no-reply@accounts.google.com'

lm and glm function in R

What's the connection between Mr. Nancy and fried chicken?

Combining list in a Cartesian product format with addition operation?

Is my guitar’s action too high?

Why did Europeans not widely domesticate foxes?

How do I overlay a PNG over two videos (one video overlays another) in one command using FFmpeg?

Can a Wizard take the Magic Initiate feat and select spells from the Wizard list?

Why doesn't the university give past final exams' answers?



Coin Game with infinite paradox



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Flip a Fair CoinAnother probabilistic coin puzzleLeft coin, Right coin, Last coin- A fair versionCoin Flipping Game with the DevilCoin division puzzleEccentric Millionaire Probability ParadoxWhat is the value of this other coin flipping game?The asymmetric coin gameFind Coin's unfairness with only 4 tossesThe Monster and the Chessboard










3












$begingroup$


Here’s the puzzle/problem:
Let’s presume we are best friends. I own the house next to you. I make a gaming proposition along the following lines:
You throw a coin over and over again. So long as it comes up heads, you keep throwing. When it comes up tails you stop and I pay you $$$ — depending on how many heads you threw.



If you threw a tails to start, you get $0.



If you threw a heads then a tails, you get $1.



If you threw 2 heads then a tails, you get $2.



If you threw 3 heads, you get $4.



If you threw 4 heads, you get $8.



If you threw 5 heads, you get $16.



And on and on. The payoff doubles everytime you add an extra heads.



How much will you pay me to play this game (once)?



Note: This is not a loophole question, you will know when you have the right answer.










share|improve this question







New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
    $endgroup$
    – Tojrah
    2 hours ago















3












$begingroup$


Here’s the puzzle/problem:
Let’s presume we are best friends. I own the house next to you. I make a gaming proposition along the following lines:
You throw a coin over and over again. So long as it comes up heads, you keep throwing. When it comes up tails you stop and I pay you $$$ — depending on how many heads you threw.



If you threw a tails to start, you get $0.



If you threw a heads then a tails, you get $1.



If you threw 2 heads then a tails, you get $2.



If you threw 3 heads, you get $4.



If you threw 4 heads, you get $8.



If you threw 5 heads, you get $16.



And on and on. The payoff doubles everytime you add an extra heads.



How much will you pay me to play this game (once)?



Note: This is not a loophole question, you will know when you have the right answer.










share|improve this question







New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
    $endgroup$
    – Tojrah
    2 hours ago













3












3








3


2



$begingroup$


Here’s the puzzle/problem:
Let’s presume we are best friends. I own the house next to you. I make a gaming proposition along the following lines:
You throw a coin over and over again. So long as it comes up heads, you keep throwing. When it comes up tails you stop and I pay you $$$ — depending on how many heads you threw.



If you threw a tails to start, you get $0.



If you threw a heads then a tails, you get $1.



If you threw 2 heads then a tails, you get $2.



If you threw 3 heads, you get $4.



If you threw 4 heads, you get $8.



If you threw 5 heads, you get $16.



And on and on. The payoff doubles everytime you add an extra heads.



How much will you pay me to play this game (once)?



Note: This is not a loophole question, you will know when you have the right answer.










share|improve this question







New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




Here’s the puzzle/problem:
Let’s presume we are best friends. I own the house next to you. I make a gaming proposition along the following lines:
You throw a coin over and over again. So long as it comes up heads, you keep throwing. When it comes up tails you stop and I pay you $$$ — depending on how many heads you threw.



If you threw a tails to start, you get $0.



If you threw a heads then a tails, you get $1.



If you threw 2 heads then a tails, you get $2.



If you threw 3 heads, you get $4.



If you threw 4 heads, you get $8.



If you threw 5 heads, you get $16.



And on and on. The payoff doubles everytime you add an extra heads.



How much will you pay me to play this game (once)?



Note: This is not a loophole question, you will know when you have the right answer.







logical-deduction probability coins






share|improve this question







New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 3 hours ago









SpqrTiangSpqrTiang

161




161




New contributor




SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






SpqrTiang is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
    $endgroup$
    – Tojrah
    2 hours ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
    $endgroup$
    – Tojrah
    2 hours ago







2




2




$begingroup$
This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
$endgroup$
– Tojrah
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
This is known as St Petersburg paradox.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
$endgroup$
– Tojrah
2 hours ago










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

This gambling problem is the famous St. Petersburg paradox. It is a paradox because




the wager has infinite expected value regardless of the amount paid to play. A rational agent should pay
any amount of money to play this game, and over many rounds of the game, they can expect to make a profit.




The one issue with this theoretical result is that it requires no upper limit on the possible winnings - if you make it through enough coin flips, you can win more money than the combined wealth of everyone on the planet. If we limit the lottery to a maximum payout of the world GDP (~$55 trillion), the expected value of the lottery is




around $45.




This analysis also assumes that each dollar won has equal utility, which is a measure of what a dollar means to you personally. Utility of money tends to flatten out for large amounts - a $10 million, for example, is a life-changing amount of money, but the next $10 million won't have as big an impact on your life as the first $10 million. So, $20 million is not really "worth" twice as much as $10 million. The "infinite wager" solution to the St. Petersburg paradox assumes constant utility of money, even though that's not a realistic model of how people behave.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    OK, let's actually take this seriously. As others have said, this is the so-called St Petersburg paradox, and the reason it isn't really much of a paradox is that (1) an extra dollar matters much less when you already have a lot of money and (2) our counterparty may not actually pay up. So let's model that.



    The simplest somewhat-plausible way to handle #1 is to suppose that the value to you of your material assets is roughly proportional to the logarithm of their total value or, equivalently, that the value to you of your "next" dollar is roughly inversely proportional to your current net wealth. (There's some evidence that it actually grows a bit slower than that, but it'll do).



    The way I'll handle #2 is to suppose that the probability that you pay up when I win $$X$ in the game is roughly proportional to $frac aa+X$ where $a$ is a fairly large number; so when $X$ is small you almost certainly pay and when $X$ is very large you almost certainly don't. (We should expect $a$ to be of the same order of magnitude as your net wealth in dollars; it's the size of payoff at which I think it's equally likely that you will or won't pay up.)



    Then, if my net wealth before playing the game is $$w$ and your pay-or-don't parameter is $$a$, the "correct" price $$p$ is such that



    $$frac12logfracw-pw+sum_k=0^inftyfrac12^k+2fracaa+2^klogfracw-p+2^kw=0.$$



    This isn't the sort of thing we should expect to be able to solve analytically; so far as I know there is no nice closed form for that sum. But we can do it numerically. Here are some specific results. (I cannot guarantee that I haven't messed up the calculations, though the numbers seem plausible enough to me.)



    • Suppose your $a$ parameter is ($)1000000, so that your probability of paying up has reduced to 1/2 by the time you owe me a megabuck. And suppose my own net wealth happens also to be one megabuck. Then I should be willing to pay about $4.87.

    • Suppose my net wealth remains at $1M but now $a$ is $$10^9$; even once you owe me a billion dollars you might well pay up. Then the amount I'm willing to pay increases to about ... $5.46.

    • Suppose you remain a billionaire but I am much poorer, having only $1000 to my name. Then the amount I'm willing to pay goes down to $2.98. (It goes down because the poorer I am, the faster the value-to-me of a dollar decreases as I get more.)

    • Suppose we're both poor, so I'm at $1000 and your $a$ parameter is the same. Then I am willing to pay about $2.39.

    • Suppose I am a billionaire and you have infinitely much money. Then I am willing to pay about $12.80.

    So I'm fairly comfortable answering the original question as follows: I am willing to pay somewhere between about $2 and about $13, depending on how wealthy we both are and how much I trust you to pay up even if doing so is painful for you.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      I would pay you




      All my money, and then be sad when I lost it all on the first flip




      because




      Let the amount I pay you be represented as C. After paying C, you have a 1/2 chance of winning 0, a 1/4 chance of winning 1, a 1/8 chance of winning 2, a 1/16 chance of winning 4 etc. Your expected payout would be $$-C + sum_i=0^infty frac12^i+22^i = -C + sum_i=0^infty frac14 = -C + infty$$ Theoretically if you played forever and ever, you would profit no matter how much you paid per game. Realistically, you would probably not profit no matter how much you paid.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$




















        0












        $begingroup$

        One dollar. It's a nice round amount.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




















          -1












          $begingroup$

          I will pay you




          One dollar




          to play this game, because




          The amount you pay me has no bearing on what I pay you.

          If there was a single throw there would be 50-50 chance of getting my dollar back.

          But the game can go on, so there is better than 50-50 of getting my dollar back.

          Your bankroll is the limit — your house against my $1.







          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
            $endgroup$
            – Nuclear Wang
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
            $endgroup$
            – Weather Vane
            1 hour ago











          • $begingroup$
            Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
            $endgroup$
            – Arnaud Mortier
            1 hour ago










          • $begingroup$
            @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Weather Vane
            56 mins ago



















          -2












          $begingroup$

          To play once I would pay:




          50 cents, since it is a doubling game and one heads is a dollar.







          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
            $endgroup$
            – likwidfire2k
            1 hour ago











          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "559"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );






          SpqrTiang is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpuzzling.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f82060%2fcoin-game-with-infinite-paradox%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          6 Answers
          6






          active

          oldest

          votes








          6 Answers
          6






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          4












          $begingroup$

          This gambling problem is the famous St. Petersburg paradox. It is a paradox because




          the wager has infinite expected value regardless of the amount paid to play. A rational agent should pay
          any amount of money to play this game, and over many rounds of the game, they can expect to make a profit.




          The one issue with this theoretical result is that it requires no upper limit on the possible winnings - if you make it through enough coin flips, you can win more money than the combined wealth of everyone on the planet. If we limit the lottery to a maximum payout of the world GDP (~$55 trillion), the expected value of the lottery is




          around $45.




          This analysis also assumes that each dollar won has equal utility, which is a measure of what a dollar means to you personally. Utility of money tends to flatten out for large amounts - a $10 million, for example, is a life-changing amount of money, but the next $10 million won't have as big an impact on your life as the first $10 million. So, $20 million is not really "worth" twice as much as $10 million. The "infinite wager" solution to the St. Petersburg paradox assumes constant utility of money, even though that's not a realistic model of how people behave.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$

















            4












            $begingroup$

            This gambling problem is the famous St. Petersburg paradox. It is a paradox because




            the wager has infinite expected value regardless of the amount paid to play. A rational agent should pay
            any amount of money to play this game, and over many rounds of the game, they can expect to make a profit.




            The one issue with this theoretical result is that it requires no upper limit on the possible winnings - if you make it through enough coin flips, you can win more money than the combined wealth of everyone on the planet. If we limit the lottery to a maximum payout of the world GDP (~$55 trillion), the expected value of the lottery is




            around $45.




            This analysis also assumes that each dollar won has equal utility, which is a measure of what a dollar means to you personally. Utility of money tends to flatten out for large amounts - a $10 million, for example, is a life-changing amount of money, but the next $10 million won't have as big an impact on your life as the first $10 million. So, $20 million is not really "worth" twice as much as $10 million. The "infinite wager" solution to the St. Petersburg paradox assumes constant utility of money, even though that's not a realistic model of how people behave.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$















              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              This gambling problem is the famous St. Petersburg paradox. It is a paradox because




              the wager has infinite expected value regardless of the amount paid to play. A rational agent should pay
              any amount of money to play this game, and over many rounds of the game, they can expect to make a profit.




              The one issue with this theoretical result is that it requires no upper limit on the possible winnings - if you make it through enough coin flips, you can win more money than the combined wealth of everyone on the planet. If we limit the lottery to a maximum payout of the world GDP (~$55 trillion), the expected value of the lottery is




              around $45.




              This analysis also assumes that each dollar won has equal utility, which is a measure of what a dollar means to you personally. Utility of money tends to flatten out for large amounts - a $10 million, for example, is a life-changing amount of money, but the next $10 million won't have as big an impact on your life as the first $10 million. So, $20 million is not really "worth" twice as much as $10 million. The "infinite wager" solution to the St. Petersburg paradox assumes constant utility of money, even though that's not a realistic model of how people behave.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              This gambling problem is the famous St. Petersburg paradox. It is a paradox because




              the wager has infinite expected value regardless of the amount paid to play. A rational agent should pay
              any amount of money to play this game, and over many rounds of the game, they can expect to make a profit.




              The one issue with this theoretical result is that it requires no upper limit on the possible winnings - if you make it through enough coin flips, you can win more money than the combined wealth of everyone on the planet. If we limit the lottery to a maximum payout of the world GDP (~$55 trillion), the expected value of the lottery is




              around $45.




              This analysis also assumes that each dollar won has equal utility, which is a measure of what a dollar means to you personally. Utility of money tends to flatten out for large amounts - a $10 million, for example, is a life-changing amount of money, but the next $10 million won't have as big an impact on your life as the first $10 million. So, $20 million is not really "worth" twice as much as $10 million. The "infinite wager" solution to the St. Petersburg paradox assumes constant utility of money, even though that's not a realistic model of how people behave.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 2 hours ago

























              answered 2 hours ago









              Nuclear WangNuclear Wang

              1,351616




              1,351616





















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  OK, let's actually take this seriously. As others have said, this is the so-called St Petersburg paradox, and the reason it isn't really much of a paradox is that (1) an extra dollar matters much less when you already have a lot of money and (2) our counterparty may not actually pay up. So let's model that.



                  The simplest somewhat-plausible way to handle #1 is to suppose that the value to you of your material assets is roughly proportional to the logarithm of their total value or, equivalently, that the value to you of your "next" dollar is roughly inversely proportional to your current net wealth. (There's some evidence that it actually grows a bit slower than that, but it'll do).



                  The way I'll handle #2 is to suppose that the probability that you pay up when I win $$X$ in the game is roughly proportional to $frac aa+X$ where $a$ is a fairly large number; so when $X$ is small you almost certainly pay and when $X$ is very large you almost certainly don't. (We should expect $a$ to be of the same order of magnitude as your net wealth in dollars; it's the size of payoff at which I think it's equally likely that you will or won't pay up.)



                  Then, if my net wealth before playing the game is $$w$ and your pay-or-don't parameter is $$a$, the "correct" price $$p$ is such that



                  $$frac12logfracw-pw+sum_k=0^inftyfrac12^k+2fracaa+2^klogfracw-p+2^kw=0.$$



                  This isn't the sort of thing we should expect to be able to solve analytically; so far as I know there is no nice closed form for that sum. But we can do it numerically. Here are some specific results. (I cannot guarantee that I haven't messed up the calculations, though the numbers seem plausible enough to me.)



                  • Suppose your $a$ parameter is ($)1000000, so that your probability of paying up has reduced to 1/2 by the time you owe me a megabuck. And suppose my own net wealth happens also to be one megabuck. Then I should be willing to pay about $4.87.

                  • Suppose my net wealth remains at $1M but now $a$ is $$10^9$; even once you owe me a billion dollars you might well pay up. Then the amount I'm willing to pay increases to about ... $5.46.

                  • Suppose you remain a billionaire but I am much poorer, having only $1000 to my name. Then the amount I'm willing to pay goes down to $2.98. (It goes down because the poorer I am, the faster the value-to-me of a dollar decreases as I get more.)

                  • Suppose we're both poor, so I'm at $1000 and your $a$ parameter is the same. Then I am willing to pay about $2.39.

                  • Suppose I am a billionaire and you have infinitely much money. Then I am willing to pay about $12.80.

                  So I'm fairly comfortable answering the original question as follows: I am willing to pay somewhere between about $2 and about $13, depending on how wealthy we both are and how much I trust you to pay up even if doing so is painful for you.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$

















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    OK, let's actually take this seriously. As others have said, this is the so-called St Petersburg paradox, and the reason it isn't really much of a paradox is that (1) an extra dollar matters much less when you already have a lot of money and (2) our counterparty may not actually pay up. So let's model that.



                    The simplest somewhat-plausible way to handle #1 is to suppose that the value to you of your material assets is roughly proportional to the logarithm of their total value or, equivalently, that the value to you of your "next" dollar is roughly inversely proportional to your current net wealth. (There's some evidence that it actually grows a bit slower than that, but it'll do).



                    The way I'll handle #2 is to suppose that the probability that you pay up when I win $$X$ in the game is roughly proportional to $frac aa+X$ where $a$ is a fairly large number; so when $X$ is small you almost certainly pay and when $X$ is very large you almost certainly don't. (We should expect $a$ to be of the same order of magnitude as your net wealth in dollars; it's the size of payoff at which I think it's equally likely that you will or won't pay up.)



                    Then, if my net wealth before playing the game is $$w$ and your pay-or-don't parameter is $$a$, the "correct" price $$p$ is such that



                    $$frac12logfracw-pw+sum_k=0^inftyfrac12^k+2fracaa+2^klogfracw-p+2^kw=0.$$



                    This isn't the sort of thing we should expect to be able to solve analytically; so far as I know there is no nice closed form for that sum. But we can do it numerically. Here are some specific results. (I cannot guarantee that I haven't messed up the calculations, though the numbers seem plausible enough to me.)



                    • Suppose your $a$ parameter is ($)1000000, so that your probability of paying up has reduced to 1/2 by the time you owe me a megabuck. And suppose my own net wealth happens also to be one megabuck. Then I should be willing to pay about $4.87.

                    • Suppose my net wealth remains at $1M but now $a$ is $$10^9$; even once you owe me a billion dollars you might well pay up. Then the amount I'm willing to pay increases to about ... $5.46.

                    • Suppose you remain a billionaire but I am much poorer, having only $1000 to my name. Then the amount I'm willing to pay goes down to $2.98. (It goes down because the poorer I am, the faster the value-to-me of a dollar decreases as I get more.)

                    • Suppose we're both poor, so I'm at $1000 and your $a$ parameter is the same. Then I am willing to pay about $2.39.

                    • Suppose I am a billionaire and you have infinitely much money. Then I am willing to pay about $12.80.

                    So I'm fairly comfortable answering the original question as follows: I am willing to pay somewhere between about $2 and about $13, depending on how wealthy we both are and how much I trust you to pay up even if doing so is painful for you.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$















                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$

                      OK, let's actually take this seriously. As others have said, this is the so-called St Petersburg paradox, and the reason it isn't really much of a paradox is that (1) an extra dollar matters much less when you already have a lot of money and (2) our counterparty may not actually pay up. So let's model that.



                      The simplest somewhat-plausible way to handle #1 is to suppose that the value to you of your material assets is roughly proportional to the logarithm of their total value or, equivalently, that the value to you of your "next" dollar is roughly inversely proportional to your current net wealth. (There's some evidence that it actually grows a bit slower than that, but it'll do).



                      The way I'll handle #2 is to suppose that the probability that you pay up when I win $$X$ in the game is roughly proportional to $frac aa+X$ where $a$ is a fairly large number; so when $X$ is small you almost certainly pay and when $X$ is very large you almost certainly don't. (We should expect $a$ to be of the same order of magnitude as your net wealth in dollars; it's the size of payoff at which I think it's equally likely that you will or won't pay up.)



                      Then, if my net wealth before playing the game is $$w$ and your pay-or-don't parameter is $$a$, the "correct" price $$p$ is such that



                      $$frac12logfracw-pw+sum_k=0^inftyfrac12^k+2fracaa+2^klogfracw-p+2^kw=0.$$



                      This isn't the sort of thing we should expect to be able to solve analytically; so far as I know there is no nice closed form for that sum. But we can do it numerically. Here are some specific results. (I cannot guarantee that I haven't messed up the calculations, though the numbers seem plausible enough to me.)



                      • Suppose your $a$ parameter is ($)1000000, so that your probability of paying up has reduced to 1/2 by the time you owe me a megabuck. And suppose my own net wealth happens also to be one megabuck. Then I should be willing to pay about $4.87.

                      • Suppose my net wealth remains at $1M but now $a$ is $$10^9$; even once you owe me a billion dollars you might well pay up. Then the amount I'm willing to pay increases to about ... $5.46.

                      • Suppose you remain a billionaire but I am much poorer, having only $1000 to my name. Then the amount I'm willing to pay goes down to $2.98. (It goes down because the poorer I am, the faster the value-to-me of a dollar decreases as I get more.)

                      • Suppose we're both poor, so I'm at $1000 and your $a$ parameter is the same. Then I am willing to pay about $2.39.

                      • Suppose I am a billionaire and you have infinitely much money. Then I am willing to pay about $12.80.

                      So I'm fairly comfortable answering the original question as follows: I am willing to pay somewhere between about $2 and about $13, depending on how wealthy we both are and how much I trust you to pay up even if doing so is painful for you.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      OK, let's actually take this seriously. As others have said, this is the so-called St Petersburg paradox, and the reason it isn't really much of a paradox is that (1) an extra dollar matters much less when you already have a lot of money and (2) our counterparty may not actually pay up. So let's model that.



                      The simplest somewhat-plausible way to handle #1 is to suppose that the value to you of your material assets is roughly proportional to the logarithm of their total value or, equivalently, that the value to you of your "next" dollar is roughly inversely proportional to your current net wealth. (There's some evidence that it actually grows a bit slower than that, but it'll do).



                      The way I'll handle #2 is to suppose that the probability that you pay up when I win $$X$ in the game is roughly proportional to $frac aa+X$ where $a$ is a fairly large number; so when $X$ is small you almost certainly pay and when $X$ is very large you almost certainly don't. (We should expect $a$ to be of the same order of magnitude as your net wealth in dollars; it's the size of payoff at which I think it's equally likely that you will or won't pay up.)



                      Then, if my net wealth before playing the game is $$w$ and your pay-or-don't parameter is $$a$, the "correct" price $$p$ is such that



                      $$frac12logfracw-pw+sum_k=0^inftyfrac12^k+2fracaa+2^klogfracw-p+2^kw=0.$$



                      This isn't the sort of thing we should expect to be able to solve analytically; so far as I know there is no nice closed form for that sum. But we can do it numerically. Here are some specific results. (I cannot guarantee that I haven't messed up the calculations, though the numbers seem plausible enough to me.)



                      • Suppose your $a$ parameter is ($)1000000, so that your probability of paying up has reduced to 1/2 by the time you owe me a megabuck. And suppose my own net wealth happens also to be one megabuck. Then I should be willing to pay about $4.87.

                      • Suppose my net wealth remains at $1M but now $a$ is $$10^9$; even once you owe me a billion dollars you might well pay up. Then the amount I'm willing to pay increases to about ... $5.46.

                      • Suppose you remain a billionaire but I am much poorer, having only $1000 to my name. Then the amount I'm willing to pay goes down to $2.98. (It goes down because the poorer I am, the faster the value-to-me of a dollar decreases as I get more.)

                      • Suppose we're both poor, so I'm at $1000 and your $a$ parameter is the same. Then I am willing to pay about $2.39.

                      • Suppose I am a billionaire and you have infinitely much money. Then I am willing to pay about $12.80.

                      So I'm fairly comfortable answering the original question as follows: I am willing to pay somewhere between about $2 and about $13, depending on how wealthy we both are and how much I trust you to pay up even if doing so is painful for you.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 1 hour ago









                      Gareth McCaughanGareth McCaughan

                      67.9k3172264




                      67.9k3172264





















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          I would pay you




                          All my money, and then be sad when I lost it all on the first flip




                          because




                          Let the amount I pay you be represented as C. After paying C, you have a 1/2 chance of winning 0, a 1/4 chance of winning 1, a 1/8 chance of winning 2, a 1/16 chance of winning 4 etc. Your expected payout would be $$-C + sum_i=0^infty frac12^i+22^i = -C + sum_i=0^infty frac14 = -C + infty$$ Theoretically if you played forever and ever, you would profit no matter how much you paid per game. Realistically, you would probably not profit no matter how much you paid.







                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$

















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            I would pay you




                            All my money, and then be sad when I lost it all on the first flip




                            because




                            Let the amount I pay you be represented as C. After paying C, you have a 1/2 chance of winning 0, a 1/4 chance of winning 1, a 1/8 chance of winning 2, a 1/16 chance of winning 4 etc. Your expected payout would be $$-C + sum_i=0^infty frac12^i+22^i = -C + sum_i=0^infty frac14 = -C + infty$$ Theoretically if you played forever and ever, you would profit no matter how much you paid per game. Realistically, you would probably not profit no matter how much you paid.







                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$















                              1












                              1








                              1





                              $begingroup$

                              I would pay you




                              All my money, and then be sad when I lost it all on the first flip




                              because




                              Let the amount I pay you be represented as C. After paying C, you have a 1/2 chance of winning 0, a 1/4 chance of winning 1, a 1/8 chance of winning 2, a 1/16 chance of winning 4 etc. Your expected payout would be $$-C + sum_i=0^infty frac12^i+22^i = -C + sum_i=0^infty frac14 = -C + infty$$ Theoretically if you played forever and ever, you would profit no matter how much you paid per game. Realistically, you would probably not profit no matter how much you paid.







                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              I would pay you




                              All my money, and then be sad when I lost it all on the first flip




                              because




                              Let the amount I pay you be represented as C. After paying C, you have a 1/2 chance of winning 0, a 1/4 chance of winning 1, a 1/8 chance of winning 2, a 1/16 chance of winning 4 etc. Your expected payout would be $$-C + sum_i=0^infty frac12^i+22^i = -C + sum_i=0^infty frac14 = -C + infty$$ Theoretically if you played forever and ever, you would profit no matter how much you paid per game. Realistically, you would probably not profit no matter how much you paid.








                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 2 hours ago









                              PunPun1000PunPun1000

                              37615




                              37615





















                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  One dollar. It's a nice round amount.






                                  share|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$

















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    One dollar. It's a nice round amount.






                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$















                                      0












                                      0








                                      0





                                      $begingroup$

                                      One dollar. It's a nice round amount.






                                      share|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      One dollar. It's a nice round amount.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered 33 mins ago









                                      AcccumulationAcccumulation

                                      554111




                                      554111





















                                          -1












                                          $begingroup$

                                          I will pay you




                                          One dollar




                                          to play this game, because




                                          The amount you pay me has no bearing on what I pay you.

                                          If there was a single throw there would be 50-50 chance of getting my dollar back.

                                          But the game can go on, so there is better than 50-50 of getting my dollar back.

                                          Your bankroll is the limit — your house against my $1.







                                          share|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$








                                          • 1




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Nuclear Wang
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            1 hour ago











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Arnaud Mortier
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            56 mins ago
















                                          -1












                                          $begingroup$

                                          I will pay you




                                          One dollar




                                          to play this game, because




                                          The amount you pay me has no bearing on what I pay you.

                                          If there was a single throw there would be 50-50 chance of getting my dollar back.

                                          But the game can go on, so there is better than 50-50 of getting my dollar back.

                                          Your bankroll is the limit — your house against my $1.







                                          share|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$








                                          • 1




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Nuclear Wang
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            1 hour ago











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Arnaud Mortier
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            56 mins ago














                                          -1












                                          -1








                                          -1





                                          $begingroup$

                                          I will pay you




                                          One dollar




                                          to play this game, because




                                          The amount you pay me has no bearing on what I pay you.

                                          If there was a single throw there would be 50-50 chance of getting my dollar back.

                                          But the game can go on, so there is better than 50-50 of getting my dollar back.

                                          Your bankroll is the limit — your house against my $1.







                                          share|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$



                                          I will pay you




                                          One dollar




                                          to play this game, because




                                          The amount you pay me has no bearing on what I pay you.

                                          If there was a single throw there would be 50-50 chance of getting my dollar back.

                                          But the game can go on, so there is better than 50-50 of getting my dollar back.

                                          Your bankroll is the limit — your house against my $1.








                                          share|improve this answer












                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer










                                          answered 2 hours ago









                                          Weather VaneWeather Vane

                                          2,485113




                                          2,485113







                                          • 1




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Nuclear Wang
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            1 hour ago











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Arnaud Mortier
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            56 mins ago













                                          • 1




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Nuclear Wang
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            1 hour ago











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Arnaud Mortier
                                            1 hour ago










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Weather Vane
                                            56 mins ago








                                          1




                                          1




                                          $begingroup$
                                          Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Nuclear Wang
                                          1 hour ago




                                          $begingroup$
                                          Why not pay one penny instead of a whole dollar? Alternatively, if the game was offered for $1.01, you would reject the offer?
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Nuclear Wang
                                          1 hour ago












                                          $begingroup$
                                          @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Weather Vane
                                          1 hour ago





                                          $begingroup$
                                          @NuclearWang please don't reveal the hidden answer. In answer to your question, because in the land of this puzzle I don't know if a penny exists. But I do know that the amount I stated exists.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Weather Vane
                                          1 hour ago













                                          $begingroup$
                                          Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Arnaud Mortier
                                          1 hour ago




                                          $begingroup$
                                          Your answer to @NuclearWang ignores his/her second question. Replace 1.01 by 2 if you like it better, the point of the question is the same.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Arnaud Mortier
                                          1 hour ago












                                          $begingroup$
                                          @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Weather Vane
                                          56 mins ago





                                          $begingroup$
                                          @ArnaudMortier the game is not being offered to me for $1.01 or 2 and it is not Nuclear Wang's puzzle. The question was: How much will I pay? And that was my answer.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Weather Vane
                                          56 mins ago












                                          -2












                                          $begingroup$

                                          To play once I would pay:




                                          50 cents, since it is a doubling game and one heads is a dollar.







                                          share|improve this answer










                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                          $endgroup$












                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – likwidfire2k
                                            1 hour ago















                                          -2












                                          $begingroup$

                                          To play once I would pay:




                                          50 cents, since it is a doubling game and one heads is a dollar.







                                          share|improve this answer










                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                          $endgroup$












                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – likwidfire2k
                                            1 hour ago













                                          -2












                                          -2








                                          -2





                                          $begingroup$

                                          To play once I would pay:




                                          50 cents, since it is a doubling game and one heads is a dollar.







                                          share|improve this answer










                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                          $endgroup$



                                          To play once I would pay:




                                          50 cents, since it is a doubling game and one heads is a dollar.








                                          share|improve this answer










                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer








                                          edited 1 hour ago





















                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                          answered 2 hours ago









                                          likwidfire2klikwidfire2k

                                          13




                                          13




                                          New contributor




                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                          New contributor





                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                          likwidfire2k is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – likwidfire2k
                                            1 hour ago
















                                          • $begingroup$
                                            Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – likwidfire2k
                                            1 hour ago















                                          $begingroup$
                                          Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – likwidfire2k
                                          1 hour ago




                                          $begingroup$
                                          Brutal with the downvotes when updating answers...
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – likwidfire2k
                                          1 hour ago










                                          SpqrTiang is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









                                          draft saved

                                          draft discarded


















                                          SpqrTiang is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                          SpqrTiang is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











                                          SpqrTiang is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














                                          Thanks for contributing an answer to Puzzling Stack Exchange!


                                          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                          But avoid


                                          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                          draft saved


                                          draft discarded














                                          StackExchange.ready(
                                          function ()
                                          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpuzzling.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f82060%2fcoin-game-with-infinite-paradox%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                          );

                                          Post as a guest















                                          Required, but never shown





















































                                          Required, but never shown














                                          Required, but never shown












                                          Required, but never shown







                                          Required, but never shown

































                                          Required, but never shown














                                          Required, but never shown












                                          Required, but never shown







                                          Required, but never shown







                                          Popular posts from this blog

                                          Era Viking Índice Início da Era Viquingue | Cotidiano | Sociedade | Língua | Religião | A arte | As primeiras cidades | As viagens dos viquingues | Viquingues do Oeste e Leste | Fim da Era Viquingue | Fontes históricas | Referências Bibliografia | Ligações externas | Menu de navegação«Sverige då!»«Handel I vikingetid»«O que é Nórdico Antigo»Mito, magia e religião na volsunga saga Um olhar sobre a trajetória mítica do herói sigurd«Bonden var den verklige vikingen»«Vikingatiden»«Vikingatiden»«Vinland»«Guerreiras de Óðinn: As Valkyrjor na Mitologia Viking»1519-9053«Esculpindo símbolos e seres: A arte viking em pedras rúnicas»1679-9313Historia - Tema: VikingarnaAventura e Magia no Mundo das Sagas IslandesasEra Vikinge

                                          What's the metal clinking sound at the end of credits in Avengers: Endgame?What makes Thanos so strong in Avengers: Endgame?Who is the character that appears at the end of Endgame?What happens to Mjolnir (Thor's hammer) at the end of Endgame?The People's Ages in Avengers: EndgameWhat did Nebula do in Avengers: Endgame?Messing with time in the Avengers: Endgame climaxAvengers: Endgame timelineWhat are the time-travel rules in Avengers Endgame?Why use this song in Avengers: Endgame Opening Logo Sequence?Peggy's age in Avengers Endgame

                                          Are there legal definitions of ethnicities/races? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Legal definitions in the United StatesAre there truly legal limits on US interest rates?Are gender identity and sexual orientation federally protected?Why is there an apparent legal bias against digital services?What limits are there to the powers of individual judges in the United States legal system?Are women only scholarships legal under Irish / EU law?Is the term “race” defined by Public Law enacted by Congress of the United StatesIs there a legal definition of race in the US?Neighbors are spying for landlord on Renters is it legal?Are Protected Classes Bi-directional?