What is the point of signatures? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Do scans of signed documents have the same legal power as the original document?In Australia, Is it legal to sign a document as somebody else?What is the liability of a person who signs as a witness?What is the remedy if a lawyer forges a client's signature on a will?How do I know what I am signing on handheld digital stylus signature devices?What gives e-signatures legal standing/force in the United States?Does ripping up the only signed contract form invalidate it?What if somebody copies your signature on a contract that says you can't sue them?Is a document signed using software considered legally binding?If there are any fully valid/legally accepted digital/electronic signature techniques in the US

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What is the point of signatures?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Do scans of signed documents have the same legal power as the original document?In Australia, Is it legal to sign a document as somebody else?What is the liability of a person who signs as a witness?What is the remedy if a lawyer forges a client's signature on a will?How do I know what I am signing on handheld digital stylus signature devices?What gives e-signatures legal standing/force in the United States?Does ripping up the only signed contract form invalidate it?What if somebody copies your signature on a contract that says you can't sue them?Is a document signed using software considered legally binding?If there are any fully valid/legally accepted digital/electronic signature techniques in the US










4















Signing a document to show your agreement is very common, but signatures seem very easy to forge. Nowadays, with electronic signatures it is trivial - some software doesn't even include your actual signature but pastes in your name in a cursive font.



What good does it do to sign something, then? Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?










share|improve this question




























    4















    Signing a document to show your agreement is very common, but signatures seem very easy to forge. Nowadays, with electronic signatures it is trivial - some software doesn't even include your actual signature but pastes in your name in a cursive font.



    What good does it do to sign something, then? Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?










    share|improve this question


























      4












      4








      4








      Signing a document to show your agreement is very common, but signatures seem very easy to forge. Nowadays, with electronic signatures it is trivial - some software doesn't even include your actual signature but pastes in your name in a cursive font.



      What good does it do to sign something, then? Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?










      share|improve this question
















      Signing a document to show your agreement is very common, but signatures seem very easy to forge. Nowadays, with electronic signatures it is trivial - some software doesn't even include your actual signature but pastes in your name in a cursive font.



      What good does it do to sign something, then? Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?







      signature






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 5 mins ago







      Consis

















      asked Sep 13 '18 at 22:00









      ConsisConsis

      2018




      2018




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3














          The issues you describe have existed with signatures from the beginning of their use. There exists a tradeoff between ease of use and reliability, both of forgery and of people falsely claiming forgery.



          Originally, the closest thing to a signature was the use of seals and signet rings. While relatively hard to forge, it only showed that the possessor of the object agreed.



          Signatures, especially in cursive font, were developed later. They were in some ways easier to forge(you didn't need to get access to a physical device), but more difficult in others(the seal symbols tended to be used on everything and various improvements in technology had been made), and harder to falsely claim forgery(because most people can't alter their handwriting well). You were affixing your name to the document, indicating that you agreed. Often, the signatures were required to backed up with the signatures of other people as witnesses. They didn't have to agree to the document, they just had to agree to testify that you signed of your own free will.



          Because witnesses, especially trustworthy and independent witnesses, are hard to come by, some places have dropped that requirement, such as checks and signing a aper receipt when using a credit card. But for some important documents, certain jurisdictions still require witnesses, including large transactions (a document relating to a car insurance payout I recently had required a witness to confirm my signature) and marriages.



          However, with electronic media, the point of a signature is more to indicate deliberate acceptance of terms, with verification of an individual being left to other processes (e.g. IP address, MAC address, linkage to a specific email account, etc.), so forgery is less of an issue.



          I have also seen "signatures" amount to checkboxes and "I agree" buttons. Generally, the higher the stakes and "more legal" the agreement, the more likely to these have been the "typed signatures" that you describe, but this seems to be decreasing in frequency, suggesting that its purpose was to stop gap a hole in legal acceptance by judges/courts/laws with regards to electronic communications.



          Addendum: It should also note that the replacement of seals by signatures is not universal; for instance in Japan, seals are still used over signatures in the majority of cases.






          share|improve this answer
































            0















            What good does it do to sign something, then?




            A signature still tends to reflect a meeting of minds despite the greater ease of forgery through (ab-)use of technology.




            Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?




            Yes, but the parties' conduct and other circumstantial evidence can outweigh or disprove a party's after-the-fact allegations.



            Among other factors, a person's denial that he signed a document is significantly less credible where the document at issue pertains to a neutral non-party.



            For instance, the lawyer who represented the defendant in one of my cases made the fraudulent allegation that I did not serve upon him a copy of my motion (and of course, with that pretext he asked the court to be awarded with $1,500 from my pocket). Seven days later, he changed his version, now alleging that I served the papers on the defendant (instead of on him). Since I sent the papers by Certified Mail, the lawyer's fraudulent allegations imply his false denial that he signed a USPS receipt form.



            I disproved that crook by filing in court a copy of the USPS records with his signature (see last page of my Exhibit, thereby showing that this lawyer himself received from the USPS the papers I sent by Certified Mail.



            This lawyer-crook kept denying the issue in court. However, since the USPS is a non-party and has no interests vested in the lawsuit I filed, this lawyer "in good standing" cannot reasonably deny that he signed the receipt form as requested by the USPS when it (the USPS) delivered my envelope to him.






            share|improve this answer
































              0














              It changes the onus of proof



              When you make an assertion in a civil case, you have the onus of proving it on the balance of probabilities with evidence.



              A signature on a document is very good evidence that the person whose signature it is has read and understood the document. To prove that they didn't is almost impossible - they would have to prove some sort of unlawful coercement or legal incapactity.



              Now, if you say that the signature is forged - you have to prove that assertion.






              share|improve this answer























              • Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                – hszmv
                Sep 24 '18 at 14:56











              Your Answer








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              3 Answers
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              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

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              active

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              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              3














              The issues you describe have existed with signatures from the beginning of their use. There exists a tradeoff between ease of use and reliability, both of forgery and of people falsely claiming forgery.



              Originally, the closest thing to a signature was the use of seals and signet rings. While relatively hard to forge, it only showed that the possessor of the object agreed.



              Signatures, especially in cursive font, were developed later. They were in some ways easier to forge(you didn't need to get access to a physical device), but more difficult in others(the seal symbols tended to be used on everything and various improvements in technology had been made), and harder to falsely claim forgery(because most people can't alter their handwriting well). You were affixing your name to the document, indicating that you agreed. Often, the signatures were required to backed up with the signatures of other people as witnesses. They didn't have to agree to the document, they just had to agree to testify that you signed of your own free will.



              Because witnesses, especially trustworthy and independent witnesses, are hard to come by, some places have dropped that requirement, such as checks and signing a aper receipt when using a credit card. But for some important documents, certain jurisdictions still require witnesses, including large transactions (a document relating to a car insurance payout I recently had required a witness to confirm my signature) and marriages.



              However, with electronic media, the point of a signature is more to indicate deliberate acceptance of terms, with verification of an individual being left to other processes (e.g. IP address, MAC address, linkage to a specific email account, etc.), so forgery is less of an issue.



              I have also seen "signatures" amount to checkboxes and "I agree" buttons. Generally, the higher the stakes and "more legal" the agreement, the more likely to these have been the "typed signatures" that you describe, but this seems to be decreasing in frequency, suggesting that its purpose was to stop gap a hole in legal acceptance by judges/courts/laws with regards to electronic communications.



              Addendum: It should also note that the replacement of seals by signatures is not universal; for instance in Japan, seals are still used over signatures in the majority of cases.






              share|improve this answer





























                3














                The issues you describe have existed with signatures from the beginning of their use. There exists a tradeoff between ease of use and reliability, both of forgery and of people falsely claiming forgery.



                Originally, the closest thing to a signature was the use of seals and signet rings. While relatively hard to forge, it only showed that the possessor of the object agreed.



                Signatures, especially in cursive font, were developed later. They were in some ways easier to forge(you didn't need to get access to a physical device), but more difficult in others(the seal symbols tended to be used on everything and various improvements in technology had been made), and harder to falsely claim forgery(because most people can't alter their handwriting well). You were affixing your name to the document, indicating that you agreed. Often, the signatures were required to backed up with the signatures of other people as witnesses. They didn't have to agree to the document, they just had to agree to testify that you signed of your own free will.



                Because witnesses, especially trustworthy and independent witnesses, are hard to come by, some places have dropped that requirement, such as checks and signing a aper receipt when using a credit card. But for some important documents, certain jurisdictions still require witnesses, including large transactions (a document relating to a car insurance payout I recently had required a witness to confirm my signature) and marriages.



                However, with electronic media, the point of a signature is more to indicate deliberate acceptance of terms, with verification of an individual being left to other processes (e.g. IP address, MAC address, linkage to a specific email account, etc.), so forgery is less of an issue.



                I have also seen "signatures" amount to checkboxes and "I agree" buttons. Generally, the higher the stakes and "more legal" the agreement, the more likely to these have been the "typed signatures" that you describe, but this seems to be decreasing in frequency, suggesting that its purpose was to stop gap a hole in legal acceptance by judges/courts/laws with regards to electronic communications.



                Addendum: It should also note that the replacement of seals by signatures is not universal; for instance in Japan, seals are still used over signatures in the majority of cases.






                share|improve this answer



























                  3












                  3








                  3







                  The issues you describe have existed with signatures from the beginning of their use. There exists a tradeoff between ease of use and reliability, both of forgery and of people falsely claiming forgery.



                  Originally, the closest thing to a signature was the use of seals and signet rings. While relatively hard to forge, it only showed that the possessor of the object agreed.



                  Signatures, especially in cursive font, were developed later. They were in some ways easier to forge(you didn't need to get access to a physical device), but more difficult in others(the seal symbols tended to be used on everything and various improvements in technology had been made), and harder to falsely claim forgery(because most people can't alter their handwriting well). You were affixing your name to the document, indicating that you agreed. Often, the signatures were required to backed up with the signatures of other people as witnesses. They didn't have to agree to the document, they just had to agree to testify that you signed of your own free will.



                  Because witnesses, especially trustworthy and independent witnesses, are hard to come by, some places have dropped that requirement, such as checks and signing a aper receipt when using a credit card. But for some important documents, certain jurisdictions still require witnesses, including large transactions (a document relating to a car insurance payout I recently had required a witness to confirm my signature) and marriages.



                  However, with electronic media, the point of a signature is more to indicate deliberate acceptance of terms, with verification of an individual being left to other processes (e.g. IP address, MAC address, linkage to a specific email account, etc.), so forgery is less of an issue.



                  I have also seen "signatures" amount to checkboxes and "I agree" buttons. Generally, the higher the stakes and "more legal" the agreement, the more likely to these have been the "typed signatures" that you describe, but this seems to be decreasing in frequency, suggesting that its purpose was to stop gap a hole in legal acceptance by judges/courts/laws with regards to electronic communications.



                  Addendum: It should also note that the replacement of seals by signatures is not universal; for instance in Japan, seals are still used over signatures in the majority of cases.






                  share|improve this answer















                  The issues you describe have existed with signatures from the beginning of their use. There exists a tradeoff between ease of use and reliability, both of forgery and of people falsely claiming forgery.



                  Originally, the closest thing to a signature was the use of seals and signet rings. While relatively hard to forge, it only showed that the possessor of the object agreed.



                  Signatures, especially in cursive font, were developed later. They were in some ways easier to forge(you didn't need to get access to a physical device), but more difficult in others(the seal symbols tended to be used on everything and various improvements in technology had been made), and harder to falsely claim forgery(because most people can't alter their handwriting well). You were affixing your name to the document, indicating that you agreed. Often, the signatures were required to backed up with the signatures of other people as witnesses. They didn't have to agree to the document, they just had to agree to testify that you signed of your own free will.



                  Because witnesses, especially trustworthy and independent witnesses, are hard to come by, some places have dropped that requirement, such as checks and signing a aper receipt when using a credit card. But for some important documents, certain jurisdictions still require witnesses, including large transactions (a document relating to a car insurance payout I recently had required a witness to confirm my signature) and marriages.



                  However, with electronic media, the point of a signature is more to indicate deliberate acceptance of terms, with verification of an individual being left to other processes (e.g. IP address, MAC address, linkage to a specific email account, etc.), so forgery is less of an issue.



                  I have also seen "signatures" amount to checkboxes and "I agree" buttons. Generally, the higher the stakes and "more legal" the agreement, the more likely to these have been the "typed signatures" that you describe, but this seems to be decreasing in frequency, suggesting that its purpose was to stop gap a hole in legal acceptance by judges/courts/laws with regards to electronic communications.



                  Addendum: It should also note that the replacement of seals by signatures is not universal; for instance in Japan, seals are still used over signatures in the majority of cases.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Sep 24 '18 at 7:50

























                  answered Sep 13 '18 at 22:18









                  sharursharur

                  2,127618




                  2,127618





















                      0















                      What good does it do to sign something, then?




                      A signature still tends to reflect a meeting of minds despite the greater ease of forgery through (ab-)use of technology.




                      Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?




                      Yes, but the parties' conduct and other circumstantial evidence can outweigh or disprove a party's after-the-fact allegations.



                      Among other factors, a person's denial that he signed a document is significantly less credible where the document at issue pertains to a neutral non-party.



                      For instance, the lawyer who represented the defendant in one of my cases made the fraudulent allegation that I did not serve upon him a copy of my motion (and of course, with that pretext he asked the court to be awarded with $1,500 from my pocket). Seven days later, he changed his version, now alleging that I served the papers on the defendant (instead of on him). Since I sent the papers by Certified Mail, the lawyer's fraudulent allegations imply his false denial that he signed a USPS receipt form.



                      I disproved that crook by filing in court a copy of the USPS records with his signature (see last page of my Exhibit, thereby showing that this lawyer himself received from the USPS the papers I sent by Certified Mail.



                      This lawyer-crook kept denying the issue in court. However, since the USPS is a non-party and has no interests vested in the lawsuit I filed, this lawyer "in good standing" cannot reasonably deny that he signed the receipt form as requested by the USPS when it (the USPS) delivered my envelope to him.






                      share|improve this answer





























                        0















                        What good does it do to sign something, then?




                        A signature still tends to reflect a meeting of minds despite the greater ease of forgery through (ab-)use of technology.




                        Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?




                        Yes, but the parties' conduct and other circumstantial evidence can outweigh or disprove a party's after-the-fact allegations.



                        Among other factors, a person's denial that he signed a document is significantly less credible where the document at issue pertains to a neutral non-party.



                        For instance, the lawyer who represented the defendant in one of my cases made the fraudulent allegation that I did not serve upon him a copy of my motion (and of course, with that pretext he asked the court to be awarded with $1,500 from my pocket). Seven days later, he changed his version, now alleging that I served the papers on the defendant (instead of on him). Since I sent the papers by Certified Mail, the lawyer's fraudulent allegations imply his false denial that he signed a USPS receipt form.



                        I disproved that crook by filing in court a copy of the USPS records with his signature (see last page of my Exhibit, thereby showing that this lawyer himself received from the USPS the papers I sent by Certified Mail.



                        This lawyer-crook kept denying the issue in court. However, since the USPS is a non-party and has no interests vested in the lawsuit I filed, this lawyer "in good standing" cannot reasonably deny that he signed the receipt form as requested by the USPS when it (the USPS) delivered my envelope to him.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          0












                          0








                          0








                          What good does it do to sign something, then?




                          A signature still tends to reflect a meeting of minds despite the greater ease of forgery through (ab-)use of technology.




                          Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?




                          Yes, but the parties' conduct and other circumstantial evidence can outweigh or disprove a party's after-the-fact allegations.



                          Among other factors, a person's denial that he signed a document is significantly less credible where the document at issue pertains to a neutral non-party.



                          For instance, the lawyer who represented the defendant in one of my cases made the fraudulent allegation that I did not serve upon him a copy of my motion (and of course, with that pretext he asked the court to be awarded with $1,500 from my pocket). Seven days later, he changed his version, now alleging that I served the papers on the defendant (instead of on him). Since I sent the papers by Certified Mail, the lawyer's fraudulent allegations imply his false denial that he signed a USPS receipt form.



                          I disproved that crook by filing in court a copy of the USPS records with his signature (see last page of my Exhibit, thereby showing that this lawyer himself received from the USPS the papers I sent by Certified Mail.



                          This lawyer-crook kept denying the issue in court. However, since the USPS is a non-party and has no interests vested in the lawsuit I filed, this lawyer "in good standing" cannot reasonably deny that he signed the receipt form as requested by the USPS when it (the USPS) delivered my envelope to him.






                          share|improve this answer
















                          What good does it do to sign something, then?




                          A signature still tends to reflect a meeting of minds despite the greater ease of forgery through (ab-)use of technology.




                          Couldn't you just claim you didn't sign anything afterwards?




                          Yes, but the parties' conduct and other circumstantial evidence can outweigh or disprove a party's after-the-fact allegations.



                          Among other factors, a person's denial that he signed a document is significantly less credible where the document at issue pertains to a neutral non-party.



                          For instance, the lawyer who represented the defendant in one of my cases made the fraudulent allegation that I did not serve upon him a copy of my motion (and of course, with that pretext he asked the court to be awarded with $1,500 from my pocket). Seven days later, he changed his version, now alleging that I served the papers on the defendant (instead of on him). Since I sent the papers by Certified Mail, the lawyer's fraudulent allegations imply his false denial that he signed a USPS receipt form.



                          I disproved that crook by filing in court a copy of the USPS records with his signature (see last page of my Exhibit, thereby showing that this lawyer himself received from the USPS the papers I sent by Certified Mail.



                          This lawyer-crook kept denying the issue in court. However, since the USPS is a non-party and has no interests vested in the lawsuit I filed, this lawyer "in good standing" cannot reasonably deny that he signed the receipt form as requested by the USPS when it (the USPS) delivered my envelope to him.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited Sep 13 '18 at 22:34

























                          answered Sep 13 '18 at 22:28









                          Iñaki ViggersIñaki Viggers

                          10.6k21730




                          10.6k21730





















                              0














                              It changes the onus of proof



                              When you make an assertion in a civil case, you have the onus of proving it on the balance of probabilities with evidence.



                              A signature on a document is very good evidence that the person whose signature it is has read and understood the document. To prove that they didn't is almost impossible - they would have to prove some sort of unlawful coercement or legal incapactity.



                              Now, if you say that the signature is forged - you have to prove that assertion.






                              share|improve this answer























                              • Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                                – hszmv
                                Sep 24 '18 at 14:56















                              0














                              It changes the onus of proof



                              When you make an assertion in a civil case, you have the onus of proving it on the balance of probabilities with evidence.



                              A signature on a document is very good evidence that the person whose signature it is has read and understood the document. To prove that they didn't is almost impossible - they would have to prove some sort of unlawful coercement or legal incapactity.



                              Now, if you say that the signature is forged - you have to prove that assertion.






                              share|improve this answer























                              • Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                                – hszmv
                                Sep 24 '18 at 14:56













                              0












                              0








                              0







                              It changes the onus of proof



                              When you make an assertion in a civil case, you have the onus of proving it on the balance of probabilities with evidence.



                              A signature on a document is very good evidence that the person whose signature it is has read and understood the document. To prove that they didn't is almost impossible - they would have to prove some sort of unlawful coercement or legal incapactity.



                              Now, if you say that the signature is forged - you have to prove that assertion.






                              share|improve this answer













                              It changes the onus of proof



                              When you make an assertion in a civil case, you have the onus of proving it on the balance of probabilities with evidence.



                              A signature on a document is very good evidence that the person whose signature it is has read and understood the document. To prove that they didn't is almost impossible - they would have to prove some sort of unlawful coercement or legal incapactity.



                              Now, if you say that the signature is forged - you have to prove that assertion.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Sep 21 '18 at 0:30









                              Dale MDale M

                              56.7k23679




                              56.7k23679












                              • Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                                – hszmv
                                Sep 24 '18 at 14:56

















                              • Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                                – hszmv
                                Sep 24 '18 at 14:56
















                              Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                              – hszmv
                              Sep 24 '18 at 14:56





                              Typically the best proof is to submit to a hand writing sample where you include all letters in both capital and lower case. Additionally, they may have multiple statements where the letters are requested. It's important to note that no two signatures look exactly alike, especially with respect to the same writer, so evidence that two signatures are "too identical" on two different documents or even on two spots on the same document could be evidence of forgery.

                              – hszmv
                              Sep 24 '18 at 14:56

















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