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Difference between “generating set” and free product?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Free group as a free productCommuting Elements in a Free Product of Cyclic GroupsBasic properties of free product amalgamation of groupsFree Product of Groups with PresentationsWhat is the difference between free groups and a free product?A proposition about free productThe free group $mathbbF_2$ is a subgroup of a free productgroups with a pair-wise free generating setIs there a link between free actions and free groups?Order of generators in subgroup of Free Product of Cyclic Groups
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
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$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
group-theory free-groups free-product
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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
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asked 1 hour ago
user47370user47370
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1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
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@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
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$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
answered 1 hour ago
Alex OrtizAlex Ortiz
11.5k21442
11.5k21442
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
54 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
answered 56 mins ago
giannispapavgiannispapav
1,990325
1,990325
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
edited 22 mins ago
answered 27 mins ago
jgonjgon
16.5k32143
16.5k32143
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
edited 45 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
janmarqzjanmarqz
6,30041630
6,30041630
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
23 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
16 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago