Difference between “generating set” and free product? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Free group as a free productCommuting Elements in a Free Product of Cyclic GroupsBasic properties of free product amalgamation of groupsFree Product of Groups with PresentationsWhat is the difference between free groups and a free product?A proposition about free productThe free group $mathbbF_2$ is a subgroup of a free productgroups with a pair-wise free generating setIs there a link between free actions and free groups?Order of generators in subgroup of Free Product of Cyclic Groups

Are my PIs rude or am I just being too sensitive?

How did the audience guess the pentatonic scale in Bobby McFerrin's presentation?

Does Parliament need to approve the new Brexit delay to 31 October 2019?

Single author papers against my advisor's will?

ELI5: Why do they say that Israel would have been the fourth country to land a spacecraft on the Moon and why do they call it low cost?

Am I ethically obligated to go into work on an off day if the reason is sudden?

In horse breeding, what is the female equivalent of putting a horse out "to stud"?

verb not working in beamer even though I use [fragile]

Why not take a picture of a closer black hole?

Do warforged have souls?

how can a perfect fourth interval be considered either consonant or dissonant?

How to prevent selfdestruct from another contract

How many people can fit inside Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion?

Why does concentrated shear force on a beam influence the whole beam?

Derivation tree not rendering

system call string length limit

What information about me do stores get via my credit card?

Mortgage adviser recommends a longer term than necessary combined with overpayments

Finding the path in a graph from A to B then back to A with a minimum of shared edges

Semisimplicity of the category of coherent sheaves?

How does this infinite series simplify to an integral?

How can I define good in a religion that claims no moral authority?

Take groceries in checked luggage

Working through the single responsibility principle (SRP) in Python when calls are expensive



Difference between “generating set” and free product?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Free group as a free productCommuting Elements in a Free Product of Cyclic GroupsBasic properties of free product amalgamation of groupsFree Product of Groups with PresentationsWhat is the difference between free groups and a free product?A proposition about free productThe free group $mathbbF_2$ is a subgroup of a free productgroups with a pair-wise free generating setIs there a link between free actions and free groups?Order of generators in subgroup of Free Product of Cyclic Groups










4












$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago















4












$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?







group-theory free-groups free-product






share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question






New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 1 hour ago









user47370user47370

233




233




New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago







1




1




$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
    $endgroup$
    – user47370
    54 mins ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
    $endgroup$
    – giannispapav
    42 mins ago



















2












$begingroup$

As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    1












    $begingroup$

    Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



    First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



    What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



    The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



    If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



    The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$




















      0












      $begingroup$

      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        39 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
        $endgroup$
        – janmarqz
        31 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        24 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        23 mins ago











      • $begingroup$
        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
        $endgroup$
        – janmarqz
        16 mins ago












      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );






      user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3186562%2fdifference-between-generating-set-and-free-product%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      2












      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        54 mins ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        42 mins ago
















      2












      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        54 mins ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        42 mins ago














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 1 hour ago









      Alex OrtizAlex Ortiz

      11.5k21442




      11.5k21442











      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        54 mins ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        42 mins ago

















      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        54 mins ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        42 mins ago
















      $begingroup$
      thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
      $endgroup$
      – user47370
      54 mins ago





      $begingroup$
      thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
      $endgroup$
      – user47370
      54 mins ago





      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
      $endgroup$
      – giannispapav
      42 mins ago





      $begingroup$
      @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
      $endgroup$
      – giannispapav
      42 mins ago












      2












      $begingroup$

      As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        2












        $begingroup$

        As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 56 mins ago









          giannispapavgiannispapav

          1,990325




          1,990325





















              1












              $begingroup$

              Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



              First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



              What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



              The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



              If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



              The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                  First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                  What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                  The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                  If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                  The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                  First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                  What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                  The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                  If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_2n$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                  The relations are $g_Gg^-1_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^-1_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited 22 mins ago

























                  answered 27 mins ago









                  jgonjgon

                  16.5k32143




                  16.5k32143





















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        39 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        31 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        24 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        23 mins ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        16 mins ago
















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        39 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        31 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        24 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        23 mins ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        16 mins ago














                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited 45 mins ago

























                      answered 1 hour ago









                      janmarqzjanmarqz

                      6,30041630




                      6,30041630











                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        39 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        31 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        24 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        23 mins ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        16 mins ago

















                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        39 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        31 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        24 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        23 mins ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        16 mins ago
















                      $begingroup$
                      This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      39 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      39 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      31 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      31 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      24 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      24 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      23 mins ago





                      $begingroup$
                      If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      23 mins ago













                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      16 mins ago





                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      16 mins ago











                      user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









                      draft saved

                      draft discarded


















                      user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                      user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











                      user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3186562%2fdifference-between-generating-set-and-free-product%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Era Viking Índice Início da Era Viquingue | Cotidiano | Sociedade | Língua | Religião | A arte | As primeiras cidades | As viagens dos viquingues | Viquingues do Oeste e Leste | Fim da Era Viquingue | Fontes históricas | Referências Bibliografia | Ligações externas | Menu de navegação«Sverige då!»«Handel I vikingetid»«O que é Nórdico Antigo»Mito, magia e religião na volsunga saga Um olhar sobre a trajetória mítica do herói sigurd«Bonden var den verklige vikingen»«Vikingatiden»«Vikingatiden»«Vinland»«Guerreiras de Óðinn: As Valkyrjor na Mitologia Viking»1519-9053«Esculpindo símbolos e seres: A arte viking em pedras rúnicas»1679-9313Historia - Tema: VikingarnaAventura e Magia no Mundo das Sagas IslandesasEra Vikinge

                      What's the metal clinking sound at the end of credits in Avengers: Endgame?What makes Thanos so strong in Avengers: Endgame?Who is the character that appears at the end of Endgame?What happens to Mjolnir (Thor's hammer) at the end of Endgame?The People's Ages in Avengers: EndgameWhat did Nebula do in Avengers: Endgame?Messing with time in the Avengers: Endgame climaxAvengers: Endgame timelineWhat are the time-travel rules in Avengers Endgame?Why use this song in Avengers: Endgame Opening Logo Sequence?Peggy's age in Avengers Endgame

                      Are there legal definitions of ethnicities/races? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Legal definitions in the United StatesAre there truly legal limits on US interest rates?Are gender identity and sexual orientation federally protected?Why is there an apparent legal bias against digital services?What limits are there to the powers of individual judges in the United States legal system?Are women only scholarships legal under Irish / EU law?Is the term “race” defined by Public Law enacted by Congress of the United StatesIs there a legal definition of race in the US?Neighbors are spying for landlord on Renters is it legal?Are Protected Classes Bi-directional?