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Creating a chemical industry without petroleum
What could be a chemical cause for insomnia?Napoleonic chemical warfareMulti-purpose Fictional Chemical Element NeededChemical weapon to kill a werewolfSynthetic Opiate Based Chemical weaponA world where underwater fire is possibleRealistic geological and chemical composition of an edible planetary surfaceAre there chemical elements deadly to mushrooms but not to humans?Chemical process for a radiosynthetic Ganymedian organism?Ultrapowerful chemical propellant for guns
$begingroup$
You've been transported into a world with a medieval tech level. This world has coal deposits, but no petroleum deposits. You have no chemistry equipment with you, but you can use glassblowing or blacksmithing to make any vessels you need. You have also memorized a few college-level chemistry textbooks before you came here.
With magic, you are able to:
- telekinetically move or float anything light enough to hold in your hand
- create high-voltage electrical arcs
- heat or cool anything. Takes a long time, but with sufficient insulation you can theoretically indefinitely heat or cool any material you want, so liquid hydrogen and molten tungsten are not out of the question.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make? Specifically, would you be able to synthesize:
- Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
- Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
- Medicines
- Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
I have ideas for ways to make some chemicals:
- Gathering hydrogen peroxide from special bacteria
- Making ethanol from plant products or sugar plants
- Creating nitric acid from electric arcs
science-based medieval chemistry
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You've been transported into a world with a medieval tech level. This world has coal deposits, but no petroleum deposits. You have no chemistry equipment with you, but you can use glassblowing or blacksmithing to make any vessels you need. You have also memorized a few college-level chemistry textbooks before you came here.
With magic, you are able to:
- telekinetically move or float anything light enough to hold in your hand
- create high-voltage electrical arcs
- heat or cool anything. Takes a long time, but with sufficient insulation you can theoretically indefinitely heat or cool any material you want, so liquid hydrogen and molten tungsten are not out of the question.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make? Specifically, would you be able to synthesize:
- Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
- Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
- Medicines
- Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
I have ideas for ways to make some chemicals:
- Gathering hydrogen peroxide from special bacteria
- Making ethanol from plant products or sugar plants
- Creating nitric acid from electric arcs
science-based medieval chemistry
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You've been transported into a world with a medieval tech level. This world has coal deposits, but no petroleum deposits. You have no chemistry equipment with you, but you can use glassblowing or blacksmithing to make any vessels you need. You have also memorized a few college-level chemistry textbooks before you came here.
With magic, you are able to:
- telekinetically move or float anything light enough to hold in your hand
- create high-voltage electrical arcs
- heat or cool anything. Takes a long time, but with sufficient insulation you can theoretically indefinitely heat or cool any material you want, so liquid hydrogen and molten tungsten are not out of the question.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make? Specifically, would you be able to synthesize:
- Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
- Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
- Medicines
- Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
I have ideas for ways to make some chemicals:
- Gathering hydrogen peroxide from special bacteria
- Making ethanol from plant products or sugar plants
- Creating nitric acid from electric arcs
science-based medieval chemistry
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
You've been transported into a world with a medieval tech level. This world has coal deposits, but no petroleum deposits. You have no chemistry equipment with you, but you can use glassblowing or blacksmithing to make any vessels you need. You have also memorized a few college-level chemistry textbooks before you came here.
With magic, you are able to:
- telekinetically move or float anything light enough to hold in your hand
- create high-voltage electrical arcs
- heat or cool anything. Takes a long time, but with sufficient insulation you can theoretically indefinitely heat or cool any material you want, so liquid hydrogen and molten tungsten are not out of the question.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make? Specifically, would you be able to synthesize:
- Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
- Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
- Medicines
- Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
I have ideas for ways to make some chemicals:
- Gathering hydrogen peroxide from special bacteria
- Making ethanol from plant products or sugar plants
- Creating nitric acid from electric arcs
science-based medieval chemistry
science-based medieval chemistry
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 3 hours ago
Cyn
12.3k12758
12.3k12758
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 3 hours ago
plenglinplenglin
161
161
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
plenglin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The short answer is "no"
Access to the equivalent of a stove, a 'fridge, and a lightening bolt doesn't give you the ability to access any chemicals not already accessible during that time period. Specifically:
- Gunpowder pre-existed Medieval Europe.
The rest of it requires everywhere from small to massive processing. My college-level Organic Chemistry text (which I still have) doesn't tell me how to manufacture rocket fuel or pharmaceuticals of any kind. It also doesn't explain how to manufacture microscopes, flasks, clean rooms, safety equipment, or any such else.
Your traveler would need to memorize and/or have access to the better part of 50-100 textbooks on chemistry, physics, manufacturing, electricity, and more.
Your traveler would need time to create power distribution systems, and hundreds of electrical or mechanical instruments.
Your traveler would need time to create manufacturing facilities (most chemistry requires processes, not just the combination of a couple of chemicals).
Your traveler would need to hire hundreds of people and train them in everything from construction to factory work to advanced processing, raising their knowledge so far above that of their peers you'd risk starting civil wars.
Pharmaceuticals are absolutely out of the question with the exception of some basics (aspirin comes to mind) that can already be derived in part or in full via the pharmacology of the time.
We are occasionally asked, "how can I get advanced tech X in the medieval age?" questions. Pretty much all of them suffer from the same problem. Quoting from an answer of mine in Meta:
Technology is a massive mountain. Today, right now, we're standing on the top of that mountain. What's below us is a nearly unfathomable amount of knowledge and experience. Choosing [insert conditions of your question here] is like picking up three rocks on the mountain (presumably one at the bottom, one in the middle, one at the top) — and then expecting those three rocks to lift you high enough that you can rebuild the mountain in less time than it took to build it in the first place.
It would take a lifetime to scratch the surface of what you're trying to do. You need to declare it to be so and move on with your story. There isn't a believable path that represents a reality-based or science-based answer.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Technically the answer is yes. If you have coal, you can make coal tar and coal gas. They aren't as good as actual oil, but they're still a splendid source of hydrocarbons for industrial and medicinal use. I'm sure with sufficient chemical cunning, a big fossil hydrocarbon-based chemical industry could arise.
With your modern knowledge you could probably kickstart an industrial, chemical and pharmaceutical revolution... but there's a good chance that you won't live long enough to see it pan out. You could change the world and probably become very rich and/or influential though, with a bit of luck.
Note that none of the suggestions I've made below require or make use of your magic. If something is easy enough to be achievable, you can probably get the raw materials even back in medieval times. All the telekinetically lifted molten tungsten in the world won't make you any anthraquinones.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make?
Obvious things you've missed out in your list include fuels such as biodiesel (skip the steam age!) and useful chemicals such as chlorine-based bleach, both of which should be in your capabilities to produce.
More importantly, why not introduce electricity and electric motors? Not chemistry or magic, but incredibly useful nonetheless. Not to mention hot air balloons and gliders...
Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
For bakelite you'll be needing formaldehyde and phenol. These might be within your ability to make. The former can be made from methanol (also called wood alcohol, cos you can make it from wood) and the latter from coal or coal tar.
I suspect that most other plastics will fall into the category of "Things that will be made as a result of the revolution you started" rather than "Things you'll make whilst still alive". The raw materials might be available, but the clever synthesis routes are tricky and producing the catalysts needed will be very difficult.
The raw ingredients for PLA are also acheivable, but the catalysts needed for polymerisation may remain out of your reach (but don't require oil). Other plastics can be ultimately made without the need for oil, but they're probably far too hard to make yourself. There's a modern methanol to olefins synthesis route that can make ethylene from coal, for example, but probably beyond your capabilities (and you'd still have to polymerise it afterwards too...).
Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
Obvious answer: gunpowder. It might already be popular, depending on your time period. Given potassium nitrate (the oxidiser in gunpowder) you can make nitric acid. Potassium nitrate, also known as saltpetre, is a naturally occuring mineral and you can make it from manure or even urine. Sulphuric acid can be made from sulphur (also a naturally occurring mineral, and an ingredient for gunpowder) with a little effort, and with those two acids you can make all sorts of fun things, including guncotton and nitroglycerine.
TNT is Quite Hard to make, even these days. Composition C might well be possible though... you'll need some nitric acid and hexamine, and to make that you'll need formaldehyde.
Medicines
Oh, all sorts. This might be the easiest place to start building your empire. Introducing anaesthetics might be as simple as making some ether or chloroform. You'll need some ethanol and some sulphuric acid for the former, which should be straightforward to procure. Extracting exciting alkaloids from plants (eg. morphine) isn't rocket science!
The big improvements in medicine would be things like germ theory, hygiene and antibiotics, and these aren't necessarily in the domain of the chemist.
Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
Gunpowder again? Hydrogen peroxide is also possible, though neither will get you in to space. You'll mostly be wanting better metallurgy, I suspect, to make good use of your new propellants. Liquid hydrogen would probably be too hard to work with, but LOX would work with all sorts of other fuels that you could probably get your hands on. Alcohol/LOX, anyone?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pyrolysis of wood can be the basis of your chemical industry.
In pyrolysis process, wood (or virtually any other organic matter) is heated in the absence of air. If properly done, it results in charcoal and pyrolysis_oil vapors. Those vapors need to be captured and separated into individual substances. Pyrolisis oil is still quite different from oil's naphtha, but the pathway to most organic components that you want is much shorter now.
Another way that you already mentioned is fermentation, which results in ethanol and or other alcohols.
Electric arc that you also mentioned is indeed a good way to produce nitric acid, which should give you a pathway to other strong acids, which, in turn, can be used for dehydration and substitution, eventually giving you hydrocarbons and plastics.
P.S. All those things above would be doable in small quantities in an "alchemist's lab" environment. Building a whole industry producing all the substances (XIX or XX tech level) is a much bigger task.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
active
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$begingroup$
The short answer is "no"
Access to the equivalent of a stove, a 'fridge, and a lightening bolt doesn't give you the ability to access any chemicals not already accessible during that time period. Specifically:
- Gunpowder pre-existed Medieval Europe.
The rest of it requires everywhere from small to massive processing. My college-level Organic Chemistry text (which I still have) doesn't tell me how to manufacture rocket fuel or pharmaceuticals of any kind. It also doesn't explain how to manufacture microscopes, flasks, clean rooms, safety equipment, or any such else.
Your traveler would need to memorize and/or have access to the better part of 50-100 textbooks on chemistry, physics, manufacturing, electricity, and more.
Your traveler would need time to create power distribution systems, and hundreds of electrical or mechanical instruments.
Your traveler would need time to create manufacturing facilities (most chemistry requires processes, not just the combination of a couple of chemicals).
Your traveler would need to hire hundreds of people and train them in everything from construction to factory work to advanced processing, raising their knowledge so far above that of their peers you'd risk starting civil wars.
Pharmaceuticals are absolutely out of the question with the exception of some basics (aspirin comes to mind) that can already be derived in part or in full via the pharmacology of the time.
We are occasionally asked, "how can I get advanced tech X in the medieval age?" questions. Pretty much all of them suffer from the same problem. Quoting from an answer of mine in Meta:
Technology is a massive mountain. Today, right now, we're standing on the top of that mountain. What's below us is a nearly unfathomable amount of knowledge and experience. Choosing [insert conditions of your question here] is like picking up three rocks on the mountain (presumably one at the bottom, one in the middle, one at the top) — and then expecting those three rocks to lift you high enough that you can rebuild the mountain in less time than it took to build it in the first place.
It would take a lifetime to scratch the surface of what you're trying to do. You need to declare it to be so and move on with your story. There isn't a believable path that represents a reality-based or science-based answer.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The short answer is "no"
Access to the equivalent of a stove, a 'fridge, and a lightening bolt doesn't give you the ability to access any chemicals not already accessible during that time period. Specifically:
- Gunpowder pre-existed Medieval Europe.
The rest of it requires everywhere from small to massive processing. My college-level Organic Chemistry text (which I still have) doesn't tell me how to manufacture rocket fuel or pharmaceuticals of any kind. It also doesn't explain how to manufacture microscopes, flasks, clean rooms, safety equipment, or any such else.
Your traveler would need to memorize and/or have access to the better part of 50-100 textbooks on chemistry, physics, manufacturing, electricity, and more.
Your traveler would need time to create power distribution systems, and hundreds of electrical or mechanical instruments.
Your traveler would need time to create manufacturing facilities (most chemistry requires processes, not just the combination of a couple of chemicals).
Your traveler would need to hire hundreds of people and train them in everything from construction to factory work to advanced processing, raising their knowledge so far above that of their peers you'd risk starting civil wars.
Pharmaceuticals are absolutely out of the question with the exception of some basics (aspirin comes to mind) that can already be derived in part or in full via the pharmacology of the time.
We are occasionally asked, "how can I get advanced tech X in the medieval age?" questions. Pretty much all of them suffer from the same problem. Quoting from an answer of mine in Meta:
Technology is a massive mountain. Today, right now, we're standing on the top of that mountain. What's below us is a nearly unfathomable amount of knowledge and experience. Choosing [insert conditions of your question here] is like picking up three rocks on the mountain (presumably one at the bottom, one in the middle, one at the top) — and then expecting those three rocks to lift you high enough that you can rebuild the mountain in less time than it took to build it in the first place.
It would take a lifetime to scratch the surface of what you're trying to do. You need to declare it to be so and move on with your story. There isn't a believable path that represents a reality-based or science-based answer.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The short answer is "no"
Access to the equivalent of a stove, a 'fridge, and a lightening bolt doesn't give you the ability to access any chemicals not already accessible during that time period. Specifically:
- Gunpowder pre-existed Medieval Europe.
The rest of it requires everywhere from small to massive processing. My college-level Organic Chemistry text (which I still have) doesn't tell me how to manufacture rocket fuel or pharmaceuticals of any kind. It also doesn't explain how to manufacture microscopes, flasks, clean rooms, safety equipment, or any such else.
Your traveler would need to memorize and/or have access to the better part of 50-100 textbooks on chemistry, physics, manufacturing, electricity, and more.
Your traveler would need time to create power distribution systems, and hundreds of electrical or mechanical instruments.
Your traveler would need time to create manufacturing facilities (most chemistry requires processes, not just the combination of a couple of chemicals).
Your traveler would need to hire hundreds of people and train them in everything from construction to factory work to advanced processing, raising their knowledge so far above that of their peers you'd risk starting civil wars.
Pharmaceuticals are absolutely out of the question with the exception of some basics (aspirin comes to mind) that can already be derived in part or in full via the pharmacology of the time.
We are occasionally asked, "how can I get advanced tech X in the medieval age?" questions. Pretty much all of them suffer from the same problem. Quoting from an answer of mine in Meta:
Technology is a massive mountain. Today, right now, we're standing on the top of that mountain. What's below us is a nearly unfathomable amount of knowledge and experience. Choosing [insert conditions of your question here] is like picking up three rocks on the mountain (presumably one at the bottom, one in the middle, one at the top) — and then expecting those three rocks to lift you high enough that you can rebuild the mountain in less time than it took to build it in the first place.
It would take a lifetime to scratch the surface of what you're trying to do. You need to declare it to be so and move on with your story. There isn't a believable path that represents a reality-based or science-based answer.
$endgroup$
The short answer is "no"
Access to the equivalent of a stove, a 'fridge, and a lightening bolt doesn't give you the ability to access any chemicals not already accessible during that time period. Specifically:
- Gunpowder pre-existed Medieval Europe.
The rest of it requires everywhere from small to massive processing. My college-level Organic Chemistry text (which I still have) doesn't tell me how to manufacture rocket fuel or pharmaceuticals of any kind. It also doesn't explain how to manufacture microscopes, flasks, clean rooms, safety equipment, or any such else.
Your traveler would need to memorize and/or have access to the better part of 50-100 textbooks on chemistry, physics, manufacturing, electricity, and more.
Your traveler would need time to create power distribution systems, and hundreds of electrical or mechanical instruments.
Your traveler would need time to create manufacturing facilities (most chemistry requires processes, not just the combination of a couple of chemicals).
Your traveler would need to hire hundreds of people and train them in everything from construction to factory work to advanced processing, raising their knowledge so far above that of their peers you'd risk starting civil wars.
Pharmaceuticals are absolutely out of the question with the exception of some basics (aspirin comes to mind) that can already be derived in part or in full via the pharmacology of the time.
We are occasionally asked, "how can I get advanced tech X in the medieval age?" questions. Pretty much all of them suffer from the same problem. Quoting from an answer of mine in Meta:
Technology is a massive mountain. Today, right now, we're standing on the top of that mountain. What's below us is a nearly unfathomable amount of knowledge and experience. Choosing [insert conditions of your question here] is like picking up three rocks on the mountain (presumably one at the bottom, one in the middle, one at the top) — and then expecting those three rocks to lift you high enough that you can rebuild the mountain in less time than it took to build it in the first place.
It would take a lifetime to scratch the surface of what you're trying to do. You need to declare it to be so and move on with your story. There isn't a believable path that represents a reality-based or science-based answer.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 2 hours ago
JBHJBH
49.4k6101237
49.4k6101237
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Please note that questions "Can I do X in the lab?" and "Can I have X-producing industry?" are different.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander am I missing something? The title question is "Creating a chemical industry without petroleum." What's the question concerning a lab? (And it's not that different. See my comment about microscopes in my answer.)
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
While your answer is correct, your line of reasoning is that synthesis of the substances in question would be impossible in principle (rather than impossible on the industrial basis). Medieval lab was already well-equipped for chemical experiments which would be conducted centuries later (and microscopes are not really needed there).
$endgroup$
– Alexander
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Alexander Can you justify that the medieval lab is well equipped to develop processes for rocket fuel, pharmaceuticals, and plastics? Please don't be argumentative.
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
For pharmaceuticals and plastics, good question is "which ones"?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Technically the answer is yes. If you have coal, you can make coal tar and coal gas. They aren't as good as actual oil, but they're still a splendid source of hydrocarbons for industrial and medicinal use. I'm sure with sufficient chemical cunning, a big fossil hydrocarbon-based chemical industry could arise.
With your modern knowledge you could probably kickstart an industrial, chemical and pharmaceutical revolution... but there's a good chance that you won't live long enough to see it pan out. You could change the world and probably become very rich and/or influential though, with a bit of luck.
Note that none of the suggestions I've made below require or make use of your magic. If something is easy enough to be achievable, you can probably get the raw materials even back in medieval times. All the telekinetically lifted molten tungsten in the world won't make you any anthraquinones.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make?
Obvious things you've missed out in your list include fuels such as biodiesel (skip the steam age!) and useful chemicals such as chlorine-based bleach, both of which should be in your capabilities to produce.
More importantly, why not introduce electricity and electric motors? Not chemistry or magic, but incredibly useful nonetheless. Not to mention hot air balloons and gliders...
Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
For bakelite you'll be needing formaldehyde and phenol. These might be within your ability to make. The former can be made from methanol (also called wood alcohol, cos you can make it from wood) and the latter from coal or coal tar.
I suspect that most other plastics will fall into the category of "Things that will be made as a result of the revolution you started" rather than "Things you'll make whilst still alive". The raw materials might be available, but the clever synthesis routes are tricky and producing the catalysts needed will be very difficult.
The raw ingredients for PLA are also acheivable, but the catalysts needed for polymerisation may remain out of your reach (but don't require oil). Other plastics can be ultimately made without the need for oil, but they're probably far too hard to make yourself. There's a modern methanol to olefins synthesis route that can make ethylene from coal, for example, but probably beyond your capabilities (and you'd still have to polymerise it afterwards too...).
Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
Obvious answer: gunpowder. It might already be popular, depending on your time period. Given potassium nitrate (the oxidiser in gunpowder) you can make nitric acid. Potassium nitrate, also known as saltpetre, is a naturally occuring mineral and you can make it from manure or even urine. Sulphuric acid can be made from sulphur (also a naturally occurring mineral, and an ingredient for gunpowder) with a little effort, and with those two acids you can make all sorts of fun things, including guncotton and nitroglycerine.
TNT is Quite Hard to make, even these days. Composition C might well be possible though... you'll need some nitric acid and hexamine, and to make that you'll need formaldehyde.
Medicines
Oh, all sorts. This might be the easiest place to start building your empire. Introducing anaesthetics might be as simple as making some ether or chloroform. You'll need some ethanol and some sulphuric acid for the former, which should be straightforward to procure. Extracting exciting alkaloids from plants (eg. morphine) isn't rocket science!
The big improvements in medicine would be things like germ theory, hygiene and antibiotics, and these aren't necessarily in the domain of the chemist.
Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
Gunpowder again? Hydrogen peroxide is also possible, though neither will get you in to space. You'll mostly be wanting better metallurgy, I suspect, to make good use of your new propellants. Liquid hydrogen would probably be too hard to work with, but LOX would work with all sorts of other fuels that you could probably get your hands on. Alcohol/LOX, anyone?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Technically the answer is yes. If you have coal, you can make coal tar and coal gas. They aren't as good as actual oil, but they're still a splendid source of hydrocarbons for industrial and medicinal use. I'm sure with sufficient chemical cunning, a big fossil hydrocarbon-based chemical industry could arise.
With your modern knowledge you could probably kickstart an industrial, chemical and pharmaceutical revolution... but there's a good chance that you won't live long enough to see it pan out. You could change the world and probably become very rich and/or influential though, with a bit of luck.
Note that none of the suggestions I've made below require or make use of your magic. If something is easy enough to be achievable, you can probably get the raw materials even back in medieval times. All the telekinetically lifted molten tungsten in the world won't make you any anthraquinones.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make?
Obvious things you've missed out in your list include fuels such as biodiesel (skip the steam age!) and useful chemicals such as chlorine-based bleach, both of which should be in your capabilities to produce.
More importantly, why not introduce electricity and electric motors? Not chemistry or magic, but incredibly useful nonetheless. Not to mention hot air balloons and gliders...
Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
For bakelite you'll be needing formaldehyde and phenol. These might be within your ability to make. The former can be made from methanol (also called wood alcohol, cos you can make it from wood) and the latter from coal or coal tar.
I suspect that most other plastics will fall into the category of "Things that will be made as a result of the revolution you started" rather than "Things you'll make whilst still alive". The raw materials might be available, but the clever synthesis routes are tricky and producing the catalysts needed will be very difficult.
The raw ingredients for PLA are also acheivable, but the catalysts needed for polymerisation may remain out of your reach (but don't require oil). Other plastics can be ultimately made without the need for oil, but they're probably far too hard to make yourself. There's a modern methanol to olefins synthesis route that can make ethylene from coal, for example, but probably beyond your capabilities (and you'd still have to polymerise it afterwards too...).
Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
Obvious answer: gunpowder. It might already be popular, depending on your time period. Given potassium nitrate (the oxidiser in gunpowder) you can make nitric acid. Potassium nitrate, also known as saltpetre, is a naturally occuring mineral and you can make it from manure or even urine. Sulphuric acid can be made from sulphur (also a naturally occurring mineral, and an ingredient for gunpowder) with a little effort, and with those two acids you can make all sorts of fun things, including guncotton and nitroglycerine.
TNT is Quite Hard to make, even these days. Composition C might well be possible though... you'll need some nitric acid and hexamine, and to make that you'll need formaldehyde.
Medicines
Oh, all sorts. This might be the easiest place to start building your empire. Introducing anaesthetics might be as simple as making some ether or chloroform. You'll need some ethanol and some sulphuric acid for the former, which should be straightforward to procure. Extracting exciting alkaloids from plants (eg. morphine) isn't rocket science!
The big improvements in medicine would be things like germ theory, hygiene and antibiotics, and these aren't necessarily in the domain of the chemist.
Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
Gunpowder again? Hydrogen peroxide is also possible, though neither will get you in to space. You'll mostly be wanting better metallurgy, I suspect, to make good use of your new propellants. Liquid hydrogen would probably be too hard to work with, but LOX would work with all sorts of other fuels that you could probably get your hands on. Alcohol/LOX, anyone?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Technically the answer is yes. If you have coal, you can make coal tar and coal gas. They aren't as good as actual oil, but they're still a splendid source of hydrocarbons for industrial and medicinal use. I'm sure with sufficient chemical cunning, a big fossil hydrocarbon-based chemical industry could arise.
With your modern knowledge you could probably kickstart an industrial, chemical and pharmaceutical revolution... but there's a good chance that you won't live long enough to see it pan out. You could change the world and probably become very rich and/or influential though, with a bit of luck.
Note that none of the suggestions I've made below require or make use of your magic. If something is easy enough to be achievable, you can probably get the raw materials even back in medieval times. All the telekinetically lifted molten tungsten in the world won't make you any anthraquinones.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make?
Obvious things you've missed out in your list include fuels such as biodiesel (skip the steam age!) and useful chemicals such as chlorine-based bleach, both of which should be in your capabilities to produce.
More importantly, why not introduce electricity and electric motors? Not chemistry or magic, but incredibly useful nonetheless. Not to mention hot air balloons and gliders...
Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
For bakelite you'll be needing formaldehyde and phenol. These might be within your ability to make. The former can be made from methanol (also called wood alcohol, cos you can make it from wood) and the latter from coal or coal tar.
I suspect that most other plastics will fall into the category of "Things that will be made as a result of the revolution you started" rather than "Things you'll make whilst still alive". The raw materials might be available, but the clever synthesis routes are tricky and producing the catalysts needed will be very difficult.
The raw ingredients for PLA are also acheivable, but the catalysts needed for polymerisation may remain out of your reach (but don't require oil). Other plastics can be ultimately made without the need for oil, but they're probably far too hard to make yourself. There's a modern methanol to olefins synthesis route that can make ethylene from coal, for example, but probably beyond your capabilities (and you'd still have to polymerise it afterwards too...).
Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
Obvious answer: gunpowder. It might already be popular, depending on your time period. Given potassium nitrate (the oxidiser in gunpowder) you can make nitric acid. Potassium nitrate, also known as saltpetre, is a naturally occuring mineral and you can make it from manure or even urine. Sulphuric acid can be made from sulphur (also a naturally occurring mineral, and an ingredient for gunpowder) with a little effort, and with those two acids you can make all sorts of fun things, including guncotton and nitroglycerine.
TNT is Quite Hard to make, even these days. Composition C might well be possible though... you'll need some nitric acid and hexamine, and to make that you'll need formaldehyde.
Medicines
Oh, all sorts. This might be the easiest place to start building your empire. Introducing anaesthetics might be as simple as making some ether or chloroform. You'll need some ethanol and some sulphuric acid for the former, which should be straightforward to procure. Extracting exciting alkaloids from plants (eg. morphine) isn't rocket science!
The big improvements in medicine would be things like germ theory, hygiene and antibiotics, and these aren't necessarily in the domain of the chemist.
Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
Gunpowder again? Hydrogen peroxide is also possible, though neither will get you in to space. You'll mostly be wanting better metallurgy, I suspect, to make good use of your new propellants. Liquid hydrogen would probably be too hard to work with, but LOX would work with all sorts of other fuels that you could probably get your hands on. Alcohol/LOX, anyone?
$endgroup$
Technically the answer is yes. If you have coal, you can make coal tar and coal gas. They aren't as good as actual oil, but they're still a splendid source of hydrocarbons for industrial and medicinal use. I'm sure with sufficient chemical cunning, a big fossil hydrocarbon-based chemical industry could arise.
With your modern knowledge you could probably kickstart an industrial, chemical and pharmaceutical revolution... but there's a good chance that you won't live long enough to see it pan out. You could change the world and probably become very rich and/or influential though, with a bit of luck.
Note that none of the suggestions I've made below require or make use of your magic. If something is easy enough to be achievable, you can probably get the raw materials even back in medieval times. All the telekinetically lifted molten tungsten in the world won't make you any anthraquinones.
Ignoring cost and time, what kinds of chemicals would you be able to make?
Obvious things you've missed out in your list include fuels such as biodiesel (skip the steam age!) and useful chemicals such as chlorine-based bleach, both of which should be in your capabilities to produce.
More importantly, why not introduce electricity and electric motors? Not chemistry or magic, but incredibly useful nonetheless. Not to mention hot air balloons and gliders...
Plastic (any sort of it, including bakelite or polylactic acid)
For bakelite you'll be needing formaldehyde and phenol. These might be within your ability to make. The former can be made from methanol (also called wood alcohol, cos you can make it from wood) and the latter from coal or coal tar.
I suspect that most other plastics will fall into the category of "Things that will be made as a result of the revolution you started" rather than "Things you'll make whilst still alive". The raw materials might be available, but the clever synthesis routes are tricky and producing the catalysts needed will be very difficult.
The raw ingredients for PLA are also acheivable, but the catalysts needed for polymerisation may remain out of your reach (but don't require oil). Other plastics can be ultimately made without the need for oil, but they're probably far too hard to make yourself. There's a modern methanol to olefins synthesis route that can make ethylene from coal, for example, but probably beyond your capabilities (and you'd still have to polymerise it afterwards too...).
Explosives: TNT, guncotton, nitroglycerin, smokeless powder
Obvious answer: gunpowder. It might already be popular, depending on your time period. Given potassium nitrate (the oxidiser in gunpowder) you can make nitric acid. Potassium nitrate, also known as saltpetre, is a naturally occuring mineral and you can make it from manure or even urine. Sulphuric acid can be made from sulphur (also a naturally occurring mineral, and an ingredient for gunpowder) with a little effort, and with those two acids you can make all sorts of fun things, including guncotton and nitroglycerine.
TNT is Quite Hard to make, even these days. Composition C might well be possible though... you'll need some nitric acid and hexamine, and to make that you'll need formaldehyde.
Medicines
Oh, all sorts. This might be the easiest place to start building your empire. Introducing anaesthetics might be as simple as making some ether or chloroform. You'll need some ethanol and some sulphuric acid for the former, which should be straightforward to procure. Extracting exciting alkaloids from plants (eg. morphine) isn't rocket science!
The big improvements in medicine would be things like germ theory, hygiene and antibiotics, and these aren't necessarily in the domain of the chemist.
Rocket fuel of any sort (other than liquid oxygen and hydrogen)
Gunpowder again? Hydrogen peroxide is also possible, though neither will get you in to space. You'll mostly be wanting better metallurgy, I suspect, to make good use of your new propellants. Liquid hydrogen would probably be too hard to work with, but LOX would work with all sorts of other fuels that you could probably get your hands on. Alcohol/LOX, anyone?
edited 9 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Starfish PrimeStarfish Prime
1,411214
1,411214
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pyrolysis of wood can be the basis of your chemical industry.
In pyrolysis process, wood (or virtually any other organic matter) is heated in the absence of air. If properly done, it results in charcoal and pyrolysis_oil vapors. Those vapors need to be captured and separated into individual substances. Pyrolisis oil is still quite different from oil's naphtha, but the pathway to most organic components that you want is much shorter now.
Another way that you already mentioned is fermentation, which results in ethanol and or other alcohols.
Electric arc that you also mentioned is indeed a good way to produce nitric acid, which should give you a pathway to other strong acids, which, in turn, can be used for dehydration and substitution, eventually giving you hydrocarbons and plastics.
P.S. All those things above would be doable in small quantities in an "alchemist's lab" environment. Building a whole industry producing all the substances (XIX or XX tech level) is a much bigger task.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pyrolysis of wood can be the basis of your chemical industry.
In pyrolysis process, wood (or virtually any other organic matter) is heated in the absence of air. If properly done, it results in charcoal and pyrolysis_oil vapors. Those vapors need to be captured and separated into individual substances. Pyrolisis oil is still quite different from oil's naphtha, but the pathway to most organic components that you want is much shorter now.
Another way that you already mentioned is fermentation, which results in ethanol and or other alcohols.
Electric arc that you also mentioned is indeed a good way to produce nitric acid, which should give you a pathway to other strong acids, which, in turn, can be used for dehydration and substitution, eventually giving you hydrocarbons and plastics.
P.S. All those things above would be doable in small quantities in an "alchemist's lab" environment. Building a whole industry producing all the substances (XIX or XX tech level) is a much bigger task.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pyrolysis of wood can be the basis of your chemical industry.
In pyrolysis process, wood (or virtually any other organic matter) is heated in the absence of air. If properly done, it results in charcoal and pyrolysis_oil vapors. Those vapors need to be captured and separated into individual substances. Pyrolisis oil is still quite different from oil's naphtha, but the pathway to most organic components that you want is much shorter now.
Another way that you already mentioned is fermentation, which results in ethanol and or other alcohols.
Electric arc that you also mentioned is indeed a good way to produce nitric acid, which should give you a pathway to other strong acids, which, in turn, can be used for dehydration and substitution, eventually giving you hydrocarbons and plastics.
P.S. All those things above would be doable in small quantities in an "alchemist's lab" environment. Building a whole industry producing all the substances (XIX or XX tech level) is a much bigger task.
$endgroup$
Pyrolysis of wood can be the basis of your chemical industry.
In pyrolysis process, wood (or virtually any other organic matter) is heated in the absence of air. If properly done, it results in charcoal and pyrolysis_oil vapors. Those vapors need to be captured and separated into individual substances. Pyrolisis oil is still quite different from oil's naphtha, but the pathway to most organic components that you want is much shorter now.
Another way that you already mentioned is fermentation, which results in ethanol and or other alcohols.
Electric arc that you also mentioned is indeed a good way to produce nitric acid, which should give you a pathway to other strong acids, which, in turn, can be used for dehydration and substitution, eventually giving you hydrocarbons and plastics.
P.S. All those things above would be doable in small quantities in an "alchemist's lab" environment. Building a whole industry producing all the substances (XIX or XX tech level) is a much bigger task.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
AlexanderAlexander
22.2k53586
22.2k53586
add a comment |
add a comment |
plenglin is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
Welcome to Worldbuilding.SE plenglin. This sounds like the makings of an interesting story. It's a rather broad question though. Can we make plastic? meds? fuel? You could write an entire novel answering those questions (and maybe you should!). Why don't you start with one item, whichever one is most pressing for you. Or one that you use to make other things. For example "Can I make hydrogen peroxide and what is the highest concentration I could get?" If the answer is a high concentration, there's your rocket fuel...
$endgroup$
– Cyn
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
So they already have coal. Coal (and natural gas) can be converted into liquid hydrocarbons, by the Fischer–Tropsch process. So that if you have coal you also have the basis of a petrochemical industry, at a somewhat higher price for the feedstock. Countries with lots of coal or gas and little petroleum have massive coal liquefaction plants, for example Sasol in South Africa.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago