Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhy did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science

Why do we say “un seul M” and not “une seule M” even though M is a “consonne”?

Does int main() need a declaration on C++?

Ising model simulation

My boss doesn't want me to have a side project

How can I separate the number from the unit in argument?

Does the Idaho Potato Commission associate potato skins with healthy eating?

Early programmable calculators with RS-232

Would a grinding machine be a simple and workable propulsion system for an interplanetary spacecraft?

Calculating discount not working

Upgrading From a 9 Speed Sora Derailleur?

Car headlights in a world without electricity

How seriously should I take size and weight limits of hand luggage?

Is the offspring between a demon and a celestial possible? If so what is it called and is it in a book somewhere?

How badly should I try to prevent a user from XSSing themselves?

Compensation for working overtime on Saturdays

How can I replace x-axis labels with pre-determined symbols?

Read/write a pipe-delimited file line by line with some simple text manipulation

Is it possible to create a QR code using text?

Planeswalker Ability and Death Timing

Why can't we say "I have been having a dog"?

What difference does it make matching a word with/without a trailing whitespace?

Can a PhD from a non-TU9 German university become a professor in a TU9 university?

What does this strange code stamp on my passport mean?

Creating a script with console commands



Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhy did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science










3















Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question


























    3















    Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



    I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



    The actual quote from Gödel is:




    It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
    made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
    certain sense.




    The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
    by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



    My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



    My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










    share|improve this question
























      3












      3








      3








      Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



      I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



      The actual quote from Gödel is:




      It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
      made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
      certain sense.




      The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
      by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



      My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



      My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










      share|improve this question














      Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



      I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



      The actual quote from Gödel is:




      It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
      made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
      certain sense.




      The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
      by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



      My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



      My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.







      logic theology philosophy-of-religion goedel






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 9 hours ago









      AdamAdam

      4108




      4108




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




          "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
          of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
          [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
          more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
          believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
          essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
          essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
          Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
          and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
          publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
          whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
          demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
          principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
          "




          This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




          "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



          [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




          Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

            – Adam
            6 hours ago











          • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

            – Adam
            6 hours ago






          • 1





            @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

            – Conifold
            5 hours ago












          • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

            – Rusi
            1 hour ago











          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "265"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );













          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5














          Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




          "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
          of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
          [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
          more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
          believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
          essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
          essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
          Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
          and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
          publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
          whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
          demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
          principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
          "




          This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




          "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



          [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




          Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

            – Adam
            6 hours ago











          • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

            – Adam
            6 hours ago






          • 1





            @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

            – Conifold
            5 hours ago












          • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

            – Rusi
            1 hour ago















          5














          Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




          "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
          of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
          [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
          more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
          believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
          essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
          essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
          Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
          and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
          publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
          whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
          demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
          principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
          "




          This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




          "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



          [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




          Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

            – Adam
            6 hours ago











          • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

            – Adam
            6 hours ago






          • 1





            @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

            – Conifold
            5 hours ago












          • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

            – Rusi
            1 hour ago













          5












          5








          5







          Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




          "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
          of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
          [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
          more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
          believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
          essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
          essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
          Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
          and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
          publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
          whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
          demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
          principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
          "




          This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




          "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



          [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




          Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?






          share|improve this answer















          Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




          "Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
          of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
          [Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
          more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
          believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
          essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
          essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
          Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
          and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
          publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
          whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
          demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
          principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
          "




          This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




          "At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



          [...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




          Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 6 hours ago

























          answered 7 hours ago









          ConifoldConifold

          36.7k257146




          36.7k257146







          • 1





            Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

            – Adam
            6 hours ago











          • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

            – Adam
            6 hours ago






          • 1





            @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

            – Conifold
            5 hours ago












          • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

            – Rusi
            1 hour ago












          • 1





            Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

            – Adam
            6 hours ago











          • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

            – Adam
            6 hours ago






          • 1





            @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

            – Conifold
            5 hours ago












          • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

            – Rusi
            1 hour ago







          1




          1





          Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

          – Adam
          6 hours ago





          Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

          – Adam
          6 hours ago













          Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

          – Adam
          6 hours ago





          Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

          – Adam
          6 hours ago




          1




          1





          @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

          – Conifold
          5 hours ago






          @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

          – Conifold
          5 hours ago














          Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

          – Rusi
          1 hour ago





          Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

          – Rusi
          1 hour ago

















          draft saved

          draft discarded
















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Philosophy Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid


          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Are there any AGPL-style licences that require source code modifications to be public? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Force derivative works to be publicAre there any GPL like licenses for Apple App Store?Do you violate the GPL if you provide source code that cannot be compiled?GPL - is it distribution to use libraries in an appliance loaned to customers?Distributing App for free which uses GPL'ed codeModifications of server software under GPL, with web/CLI interfaceDoes using an AGPLv3-licensed library prevent me from dual-licensing my own source code?Can I publish only select code under GPLv3 from a private project?Is there published precedent regarding the scope of covered work that uses AGPL software?If MIT licensed code links to GPL licensed code what should be the license of the resulting binary program?If I use a public API endpoint that has its source code licensed under AGPL in my app, do I need to disclose my source?

          2013 GY136 Descoberta | Órbita | Referências Menu de navegação«List Of Centaurs and Scattered-Disk Objects»«List of Known Trans-Neptunian Objects»

          Metrô de Los Teques Índice Linhas | Estações | Ver também | Referências Ligações externas | Menu de navegação«INSTITUCIÓN»«Mapa de rutas»originalMetrô de Los TequesC.A. Metro Los Teques |Alcaldía de Guaicaipuro – Sitio OficialGobernacion de Mirandaeeeeeee