What's the point in a preamp? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Calculating the value of bypass capacitors for an amplifierAnother question concerning transistorsGetting bad clipping issues with this 3 stage amplifierIs there a difference in the meaning of power and current amplifier terms?What is the function of this transistor?NPN audio amplification, what is the difference between outputing from the collector or emitterWhy would I use an inverting amplifier?Headphone amplifier for guitar with stereo MP3 input - mixingDoes this audio amplifier do differential filtering?Amplifier and Low Pass filter not responding after few minutes of correct output?
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What's the point in a preamp?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Calculating the value of bypass capacitors for an amplifierAnother question concerning transistorsGetting bad clipping issues with this 3 stage amplifierIs there a difference in the meaning of power and current amplifier terms?What is the function of this transistor?NPN audio amplification, what is the difference between outputing from the collector or emitterWhy would I use an inverting amplifier?Headphone amplifier for guitar with stereo MP3 input - mixingDoes this audio amplifier do differential filtering?Amplifier and Low Pass filter not responding after few minutes of correct output?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.
Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.
This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?
My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.
amplifier
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.
Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.
This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?
My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.
amplifier
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.
Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.
This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?
My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.
amplifier
$endgroup$
I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.
Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.
This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?
My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.
amplifier
amplifier
asked 1 hour ago
Jacob GarbyJacob Garby
27110
27110
$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Quick and dirty answer:
Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.
Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.
Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.
Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).
This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?
If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?
If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.
Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?
Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.
To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.
How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.
In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.
Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.
simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Quick and dirty answer:
Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.
Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Quick and dirty answer:
Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.
Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Quick and dirty answer:
Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.
Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.
$endgroup$
Quick and dirty answer:
Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.
Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.
answered 50 mins ago
HearthHearth
5,08611339
5,08611339
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.
Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.
Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).
This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.
Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.
Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).
This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.
Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.
Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).
This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.
$endgroup$
In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.
Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.
Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).
This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.
answered 46 mins ago
Dave Tweed♦Dave Tweed
124k10153268
124k10153268
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?
If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?
If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?
If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?
If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?
If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?
If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.
$endgroup$
Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?
If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?
If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.
edited 39 mins ago
answered 48 mins ago
ToorToor
1,634212
1,634212
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.
Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?
Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.
To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.
How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.
In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.
Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.
simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.
Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?
Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.
To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.
How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.
In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.
Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.
simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.
Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?
Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.
To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.
How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.
In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.
Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.
simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab
$endgroup$
A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.
Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?
Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.
To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.
How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.
In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.
Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.
simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab
answered 21 mins ago
analogsystemsrfanalogsystemsrf
16.1k2822
16.1k2822
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
38 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
19 mins ago