Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?The major scale - why and how?What are the actual notes of each natural harmonic?Is it possible to create the illusion of a sub-harmonic?Where is a natural harmonic for the note C on guitar?Why Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?How to understand a minor chord using the harmonic series?In a musical note (A for an example) are all the other frequencies harmonic?Why do we scale/shift up an octave in the overtone series?Why is the Major-Minor Scale unused?

Why isn't KTEX's runway designation 10/28 instead of 9/27?

Hostile work environment after whistle-blowing on coworker and our boss. What do I do?

Latex for-and in equation

Freedom of speech and where it applies

Can I Retrieve Email Addresses from BCC?

Is there a problem with hiding "forgot password" until it's needed?

Pronouncing Homer as in modern Greek

Stereotypical names

What is the term when two people sing in harmony, but they aren't singing the same notes?

Identify a stage play about a VR experience in which participants are encouraged to simulate performing horrific activities

Proof of Lemma: Every integer can be written as a product of primes

Installing PowerShell on 32-bit Kali OS fails

What is the opposite of 'gravitas'?

How to check participants in at events?

Are taller landing gear bad for aircraft, particulary large airliners?

Have I saved too much for retirement so far?

Blender - show edges angles “direction”

Is there any significance to the Valyrian Stone vault door of Qarth?

How can I raise concerns with a new DM about XP splitting?

Can the electrostatic force be infinite in magnitude?

How can I successfully establish a nationwide combat training program for a large country?

Greatest common substring

Organic chemistry Iodoform Reaction

Is there an Impartial Brexit Deal comparison site?



Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?


The major scale - why and how?What are the actual notes of each natural harmonic?Is it possible to create the illusion of a sub-harmonic?Where is a natural harmonic for the note C on guitar?Why Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?How to understand a minor chord using the harmonic series?In a musical note (A for an example) are all the other frequencies harmonic?Why do we scale/shift up an octave in the overtone series?Why is the Major-Minor Scale unused?













4















This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question






















  • Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago







  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    2 hours ago















4















This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question






















  • Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago







  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    2 hours ago













4












4








4








This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question














This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!







harmonics






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 3 hours ago









Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

10.3k637




10.3k637












  • Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago







  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    2 hours ago

















  • Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago







  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    2 hours ago
















Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

– topo morto
3 hours ago






Hi Michael - I'm a bit confused by the question "Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?". Who is it that is claiming a direct link between the notes in the harmonic series and the notes in the major scale?

– topo morto
3 hours ago





1




1





@topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago





@topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago




1




1





Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago





Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago




1




1





now it's only +18

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago





now it's only +18

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago




1




1





THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

– topo morto
2 hours ago





THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

– topo morto
2 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    4 mins ago











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81936%2fcan-the-harmonic-series-explain-the-origin-of-the-major-scale%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    4 mins ago
















4














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    4 mins ago














4












4








4







There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer













There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









ttwttw

8,986932




8,986932












  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    4 mins ago


















  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    2 hours ago











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    4 mins ago

















If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago





If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

– Michael Curtis
2 hours ago













“The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

– leftaroundabout
4 mins ago






“The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

– leftaroundabout
4 mins ago


















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81936%2fcan-the-harmonic-series-explain-the-origin-of-the-major-scale%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Are there any AGPL-style licences that require source code modifications to be public? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Force derivative works to be publicAre there any GPL like licenses for Apple App Store?Do you violate the GPL if you provide source code that cannot be compiled?GPL - is it distribution to use libraries in an appliance loaned to customers?Distributing App for free which uses GPL'ed codeModifications of server software under GPL, with web/CLI interfaceDoes using an AGPLv3-licensed library prevent me from dual-licensing my own source code?Can I publish only select code under GPLv3 from a private project?Is there published precedent regarding the scope of covered work that uses AGPL software?If MIT licensed code links to GPL licensed code what should be the license of the resulting binary program?If I use a public API endpoint that has its source code licensed under AGPL in my app, do I need to disclose my source?

2013 GY136 Descoberta | Órbita | Referências Menu de navegação«List Of Centaurs and Scattered-Disk Objects»«List of Known Trans-Neptunian Objects»

Button changing it's text & action. Good or terrible? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are Inchanging text on user mouseoverShould certain functions be “hard to find” for powerusers to discover?Custom liking function - do I need user login?Using different checkbox style for different checkbox behaviorBest Practices: Save and Exit in Software UIInteraction with remote validated formMore efficient UI to progress the user through a complicated process?Designing a popup notice for a gameShould bulk-editing functions be hidden until a table row is selected, or is there a better solution?Is it bad practice to disable (replace) the context menu?