Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon forelimb placementWhat would happen if magic was constrained by the second law of thermodynamicsWhat issues as a result of square-cube law would a human scaled to the size of an ant face?Would it be possible to grow bamboo on the Earth's moon?Dragon's Blood - If it was a realistic animal what would be the color of its blood?What is the hardest wood possible, and where would this be a practical material?What would be the most addictive substance it is possible to make?What would be the possible benefits of pointed ears?Would it be possible to farm the energy from pulsars?Would a planet the size of Mercury with the gravity of Earth be scientifically possible?Giving dragons more flight muscle

Did the new image of black hole confirm the general theory of relativity?

How did passengers keep warm on sail ships?

system call string length limit

How do you keep chess fun when your opponent constantly beats you?

How to grep and cut numbes from a file and sum them

First use of “packing” as in carrying a gun

Relations between two reciprocal partial derivatives?

The variadic template constructor of my class cannot modify my class members, why is that so?

Problems with Ubuntu mount /tmp

Can a 1st-level character have an ability score above 18?

The following signatures were invalid: EXPKEYSIG 1397BC53640DB551

Is there a writing software that you can sort scenes like slides in PowerPoint?

Working through the single responsibility principle (SRP) in Python when calls are expensive

Is above average number of years spent on PhD considered a red flag in future academia or industry positions?

Windows 10: How to Lock (not sleep) laptop on lid close?

What are these Gizmos at Izaña Atmospheric Research Center in Spain?

Why don't hard Brexiteers insist on a hard border to prevent illegal immigration after Brexit?

What do you call a plan that's an alternative plan in case your initial plan fails?

Still taught to reverse oxidation half cells in electrochemistry?

verb not working in beamer even though I use [fragile]

ELI5: Why do they say that Israel would have been the fourth country to land a spacecraft on the Moon and why do they call it low cost?

How does ice melt when immersed in water

What information about me do stores get via my credit card?

In horse breeding, what is the female equivalent of putting a horse out "to stud"?



Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon forelimb placementWhat would happen if magic was constrained by the second law of thermodynamicsWhat issues as a result of square-cube law would a human scaled to the size of an ant face?Would it be possible to grow bamboo on the Earth's moon?Dragon's Blood - If it was a realistic animal what would be the color of its blood?What is the hardest wood possible, and where would this be a practical material?What would be the most addictive substance it is possible to make?What would be the possible benefits of pointed ears?Would it be possible to farm the energy from pulsars?Would a planet the size of Mercury with the gravity of Earth be scientifically possible?Giving dragons more flight muscle










5












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    2 hours ago















5












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    2 hours ago













5












5








5





$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.







science-based dragons bio-mechanics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago







Mephistopheles

















asked 6 hours ago









MephistophelesMephistopheles

2,2292935




2,2292935











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    2 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    2 hours ago















$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    7 mins ago


















1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    45 mins ago


















0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    28 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    15 mins ago











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "579"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143923%2fwould-it-be-possible-to-rearrange-a-dragons-flight-muscle-to-somewhat-circumven%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    7 mins ago















4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    7 mins ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









L.DutchL.Dutch

91.3k29211438




91.3k29211438











  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    7 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    7 mins ago















$begingroup$
1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
$endgroup$
– JBH
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
$endgroup$
– JBH
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
$endgroup$
– Spencer
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
$endgroup$
– Spencer
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
7 mins ago




$begingroup$
This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
7 mins ago











1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    45 mins ago















1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    45 mins ago













1












1








1





$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









WillkWillk

117k28221489




117k28221489







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    45 mins ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    45 mins ago







1




1




$begingroup$
Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
$endgroup$
– Willk
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
$endgroup$
– Willk
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
U wot? speak english!
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
U wot? speak english!
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
45 mins ago




$begingroup$
The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
45 mins ago











0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    28 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    15 mins ago















0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    28 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    15 mins ago













0












0








0





$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 33 mins ago









RenanRenan

52.9k15120265




52.9k15120265











  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    28 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    15 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    28 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    15 mins ago















$begingroup$
I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
28 mins ago




$begingroup$
I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
28 mins ago












$begingroup$
Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
15 mins ago




$begingroup$
Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
15 mins ago

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143923%2fwould-it-be-possible-to-rearrange-a-dragons-flight-muscle-to-somewhat-circumven%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Are there any AGPL-style licences that require source code modifications to be public? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Force derivative works to be publicAre there any GPL like licenses for Apple App Store?Do you violate the GPL if you provide source code that cannot be compiled?GPL - is it distribution to use libraries in an appliance loaned to customers?Distributing App for free which uses GPL'ed codeModifications of server software under GPL, with web/CLI interfaceDoes using an AGPLv3-licensed library prevent me from dual-licensing my own source code?Can I publish only select code under GPLv3 from a private project?Is there published precedent regarding the scope of covered work that uses AGPL software?If MIT licensed code links to GPL licensed code what should be the license of the resulting binary program?If I use a public API endpoint that has its source code licensed under AGPL in my app, do I need to disclose my source?

2013 GY136 Descoberta | Órbita | Referências Menu de navegação«List Of Centaurs and Scattered-Disk Objects»«List of Known Trans-Neptunian Objects»

Mortes em março de 2019 Referências Menu de navegação«Zhores Alferov, Nobel de Física bielorrusso, morre aos 88 anos - Ciência»«Fallece Rafael Torija, o bispo emérito de Ciudad Real»«Peter Hurford dies at 88»«Keith Flint, vocalista do The Prodigy, morre aos 49 anos»«Luke Perry, ator de 'Barrados no baile' e 'Riverdale', morre aos 52 anos»«Former Rangers and Scotland captain Eric Caldow dies, aged 84»«Morreu, aos 61 anos, a antiga lenda do wrestling King Kong Bundy»«Fallece el actor y director teatral Abraham Stavans»«In Memoriam Guillaume Faye»«Sidney Sheinberg, a Force Behind Universal and Spielberg, Is Dead at 84»«Carmine Persico, Colombo Crime Family Boss, Is Dead at 85»«Dirigent Michael Gielen gestorben»«Ciclista tricampeã mundial e prata na Rio 2016 é encontrada morta em casa aos 23 anos»«Pagan Community Notes: Raven Grimassi dies, Indianapolis pop-up event cancelled, Circle Sanctuary announces new podcast, and more!»«Hal Blaine, Wrecking Crew Drummer, Dies at 90»«Morre Coutinho, que editou dupla lendária com Pelé no Santos»«Cantor Demétrius, ídolo da Jovem Guarda, morre em SP»«Ex-presidente do Vasco, Eurico Miranda morre no Rio de Janeiro»«Bronze no Mundial de basquete de 1971, Laís Elena morre aos 76 anos»«Diretor de Corridas da F1, Charlie Whiting morre aos 66 anos às vésperas do GP da Austrália»«Morreu o cardeal Danneels, da Bélgica»«Morreu o cartoonista Augusto Cid»«Morreu a atriz Maria Isabel de Lizandra, de "Vale Tudo" e novelas da Tupi»«WS Merwin, prize-winning poet of nature, dies at 91»«Atriz Márcia Real morre em São Paulo aos 88 anos»«Mauritanie: décès de l'ancien président Mohamed Mahmoud ould Louly»«Morreu Dick Dale, o rei da surf guitar e de "Pulp Fiction"»«Falleció Víctor Genes»«João Carlos Marinho, autor de 'O Gênio do Crime', morre em SP»«Legendary Horror Director and SFX Artist John Carl Buechler Dies at 66»«Morre em Salvador a religiosa Makota Valdina»«مرگ بازیکن‌ سابق نساجی بر اثر سقوط سنگ در مازندران»«Domingos Oliveira morre no Rio»«Morre Airton Ravagniani, ex-São Paulo, Fla, Vasco, Grêmio e Sport - Notícias»«Morre o escritor Flavio Moreira da Costa»«Larry Cohen, Writer-Director of 'It's Alive' and 'Hell Up in Harlem,' Dies at 77»«Scott Walker, experimental singer-songwriter, dead at 76»«Joseph Pilato, Day of the Dead Star and Horror Favorite, Dies at 70»«Sheffield United set to pay tribute to legendary goalkeeper Ted Burgin who has died at 91»«Morre Rafael Henzel, sobrevivente de acidente aéreo da Chapecoense»«Morre Valery Bykovsky, um dos primeiros cosmonautas da União Soviética»«Agnès Varda, cineasta da Nouvelle Vague, morre aos 90 anos»«Agnès Varda, cineasta francesa, morre aos 90 anos»«Tania Mallet, James Bond Actress and Helen Mirren's Cousin, Dies at 77»e